"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 7

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

I remember very clearly avagie and euphemism laden lecture from a PE teacher about there being too many sitting out swimming and pe related to menstruation when this should only be once every 4 weeks and that if they had to they would do more through checks.

I was a late bloomer and had never had a period at that point so, along with the very hard to follow metaphors and euphemisms, was completely perplexed as to what was going on. But the threat of a teacher going after some kind of evidence of your bodily functions horrified me then and has stayed with me...I remember this talk being delivered during changing to a whole group and the whole atmosphere being one of embarrassment, humiliation, threat and fear in the locker rooms.

I’d forgotten changing rooms used to be like that. I hated them. I took my dd15 shopping recently and she wanted to try something on in Bershka and they had curtained cubicles but mixed sex. Everyone pretty much had somebody standing outside of their cubicle while they were trying on clothes - even the teenager boys had friends stood outside. It was awful. I felt right on edge.

We had the same talk @KindleKlub The PE teacher also had a 'word' with anyone whose menstual pattern fell foul of the 28 day rule.

Me too. I also had to get a letter from my GP because my periods were all over the place. If they'd thought about it, they'd have known I liked swimming. If only there'd been a way to be excused from netball and lacrosse!

Doing netball and lacrosse in a skirt that barely covered your bum and gym knickers (in house colours) was bad.

Apart from when I was on the pill my cycle averaged 21-24 days so I told the gym teacher that and, to my great relief, she was really nice about it. Must have got one of the good ones as the idea of someone trying to 'do more thorough checks' on such girls is awful.

Especially when the playing fields bordered the local boys school.

DD has uterine didelphys and whilst sometimes both wombs adopt a 28 day cycle they aren't necessarily in sync. I can't imagine what my PE teacher would have made of that one.....

I never felt comfortable doing cross country in pe knickers (really thick navy synthetic material) especially not when bleeding and using a pad that must have been obvious. But when it was at my all girls' school on our own field we all just got on with it.

When we had to do some sort of multi school event and it took us across a golf course and public park, it was horrible, made much worse by the very exaggerated 'stop and watch' behaviours of the male golfers 🤢

Anyone who does not understand the relentless discomfort of the male gaze, and how that is intensified when vulnerable and in a stare of undress, is either male or exceptionally privileged indeed

Thank you.

I'm improving. So I can see that I'm feeling better than last week but I'm still tired and feeling sick-dizzy (like vertigo).

I've just spoken to the antibiotics team and they want me to have an ECG and blood tests at their clinic on Tuesday morning.

This means I am no longer available to live paste Tuesday's session.

I am sorry that this will be inconvenient for the thread 😩

Rest up and get better, @MyrtleLion that's the main thing!

Re the evolution of shop changing rooms, I'm old enough to remember that the communal changing rooms of the 80s/90s-ish were an innovation: Before that, shops did have individual cubicles (just with curtains I think). My understanding was that communal changing developed as part of the shops' strategy for reducing shoplifting. No anti-theft tech in those days, and plenty of teens eager to swipe something from Top Shop, Chelsea Girl, etc.

The communal rooms never reflected any degree of comfort with undressing in public at the time.

Also, I clearly remember that the local swimming pools all had individual cubicles [Edited to add: it was cublcles-only, with no option to change communally], until one day they didn't and we were all supposed to be 'continental' and relaxed (they were single-sex though).

Other than at school, it definitely felt weird to be in a position of changing communally. And I think the only reason it felt normal at school is that we were completely socialised to the expectation that children & young adults just did what they were told and didn't expect to be treated with a great deal of respect.

I was one of the first in my class to develop body hair, and i was intensely self-conscious about it.

Would anyone have a good link to this case to share on AIBU?

I was one of the first in my class to develop body hair, and I was intensely self-conscious about it.

For a boy, that would be a matter of pride, generally speaking. Again, the sex difference highlighted.

As if Darlington nurses weren't bad enough, look at these statistics:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/d57ac31453ac38e3

And then read the appalling comments underneath - or maybe don't as it will do even more damage to your blood pressure.

Depressing but unsurprising.

In Jo’s report it says:
I understand that my expertise is required only in relation to Issue 8(b) in the Agreed List of Issues, that being:
It is disputed whether women are generally more sensitive than men to being
compelled to undress in front of a person of the opposite biological sex and
therefore more likely to suffer fear, distress, and/or humiliation caused by the
application of the PCPs.

So it looks like she is being brought in to directly counter Andrew Thacker’s (the Trust’s HEAD of HR) claim that it would be equally uncomfortable for men as women to have to share changing rooms with the opposite sex. My assumption is that the Trust is trying to defend itself against the part of damages that might arise from indirect sex discrimination.

On the communal changing rooms in the 80s front - I had a different experience and perspective (which isn’t to discount your many experiences of discomfort). In my teens until about 18ish I found them great. It was an opportunity for female camaraderie. We go as a group of us, take in as much clothing as allowed and swap between us. Trying things on, commenting (in a friendly and supportive way), helping each other out, etc. It really helped, me growing up, to realise how we all had our own body image issues that weren’t a good reflection of how others saw us.

The trust is in a sticky position anyway trying to argue that there's no disproportionate impact on women compared to men - the excuse that a woman MIGHT at some point wish to take her clothes off in the men's changing room is not going to wash when at this point women are suffering a man doing it to them while the men staff are not similarly impacted.

And oddly there are very rarely women lining up to get into a male changing room and strip off, or watch in the hope of catching men in their pants. (Many of us would pay good money to be spared such a sight.)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to follow much this week because I've been really busy at work, but I've just caught up with JP's evidence on TT. She laid it all out so clearly.

What are people's thoughts on how this case is likely to go?

If anyone fancies adding some of the salient points of this case to a thread in AIBU the link is below

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5440407-darlington-nurse-case-flying-under-the-radar

Darlington trans nurse tribunal told of women's changing room fears - BBC News

Well into junior school we used to have to get changed with the boys in an open to the corridor cloakroom.

By 9/10 some of us had periods and breasts and were getting very self conscious and distressed trying to get changed whilst silly boys took the piss.

I'm not too sure what triggered the change but we went from that one week to girls and boys getting changed in separate classrooms the next.

I reckon a girl's mum went and gave them an earful.

Women more likely to suffer 'fear and distress' if made to undress in front of opposite sex, academic tells tribunal brought by NHS nurses who opposed trans colleague using female changing rooms | Daily Mail Online