"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 7

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

Interestingly that would include some parts of the Leonardo sites - shame that they didn't look at the loos whilst they were there.... also an indication that Leonardo thought it was fine to flout the law on SSS whereas they are pretty hot on H&S elsewhere. I would have loved NC to ask Leonardo Andy whether they thought other aspects of H&S were optional.

When I read JP's report, I was remembering was RH said (with thanks to TT, first session 4/11/25)

NF CR used by about 300 women. Some upset.
RH never occurred a risk or embarrassed
NF frightened? Never occurred to you?
RH no
NF users changing to underwear - you first became aware of issues 2023 August. Also March 24 you became aware women upset
RH August I became aware. Lee became aware.
NF at both junctures, you decided to continue?
RH uh hum

JP certainly appeared to give the J food for thought, and, as we all know, once unseen, you cannot unsee.

I'm so glad Henderson didn't feel at risk or embarrassed. That means there can't be a problem, can there? I have decided I'm not calling him 'Rose'. I'm not going to deadname him because I'm not cruel but Henderson means I'm not affirming him either.

Yes as teen in the 80s I definitely remember communal changing rooms in Top Shop, Etam, Dotty P etc, often with a few individual curtained cubicles inside the communal one, and some people would wait for those. Looking after the CR was almost always the unpopular job given to Saturday girls, just because it was a boring, hard work task overseeing hoards of other girls trying stuff on.

In the 90s and early 00s I remember almost all the more 'grown up' high street stores had individual curtain fronted cubicles, eg Principles, M&S, Next, department stores. Curtains were quick to open and close , and you could pop your head round them while still covered up completely, if shopping in group.

In the late 90s a dept store worker relative came home in great excitement because a cross-dressing man had been removed from the lingerie CR, and escorted out of the store. It was something that was almost unheard of and drew an appropriately negative response.

Around 2005 I first used a 'unisex' set of CRs in a large supermarket or department store, when shopping for a 9yo girl relative, and those cubicles had curtain fronts and I had a sharp row with a huge bloke who came back and opened the curtain of our cubicle while 9yo was dressing, saying he was looking for something he'd forgotten. I complained but got nowhere.

I remember believing he was as shocked as I was, but his anger at feeling 'accused' of doing something awful was very powerful. It was always a terrible idea to have unisex changing facilities.

From maybe 2010s cubicles with doors were more the norm I think, but until recent years I never heard of, or considered, that men might use the SS CRs for women!

I hardly ever try clothes on in store now, it's just not worth the risk of all the ways people (mostly men) can make things difficult.

Yes, that must have been awful

Is trying on clothes in shops dying out a bit, for women and men? I haven't tried anything on in a shop in years (and I used to, plenty). Hadn't really thought too much about why.

Yep, I remember these. Hated them too. On the occasion that my desire for a garment overcame my hatred of the changing room, I tried to find a quiet corner and faced the wall as much as possible. On Saturdays it was just like a PE changing room, horrible.

I think in-store shopping is probably eclipsed by online, but when people do go into town they do want to try things on, judging by queues I still see for the CRs here and there.

All the online influencer type videos of try-ons are an extra worry for me. I don't want to have to dodge other people's phones, whatever their reason for filming.

I strongly identify with this. I put it down to having had an abusive parent and having been a mum- I am hyper vigilant for someone needing me, someone dropping something. I hear the others moving around, whether they are on their way down for snacks, have woken up at the right time, are unusually quiet, have sneezed several times…

But perhaps it’s as much having been socialised as a woman!

Could it also be why autistic girls can 'pass' while boys can't? I had it explained to me that girls were more socially aware so having less awareness didn't make them into tactless little horrors like autistic boys so easily are. I did like that consultant... He also said that boys tend to shout and scream and kick against an unfair world while girls think it's their fault. He described it as boys meltdown or carry on blithely unaware of the trail of chaos they're leaving behind them and girls turn into puddles and obsessively control whatever they can; hence anorexia and bulimia and, I suspect, changing gender. Generalising, I know, but there's a lot of truth in it.

Excellent points. I couldn’t articulate it but the burglary example is spot on.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts about the evolution of changing rooms in shops from the 70's to today. I wonder what prompted all the shops to change?

Was it that somebody noticed that shoppers were voting with their feet or that skimpy clothes were taken home to try on (or not bought at all) or was it because of the naughty voyeurs?

Where's Jo P when you need her: I bet there are some studies about that somewhere!

I suppose my point is that the average women begrudgingly changes in communal facilities so why on earth does the NHS hate women so much as to suggest that they should let men in (at any stage of their transition).

I was that Saturday girl posted on the communal changing room in a branch of DP's in the 1980s. There was one separate 'cubicle' inside it with a flimsy curtain which was always in demand. It was a proper sweaty scrum in there. I worked there for years and don't recall a single instance of a man trying to come in, whether he claimed to be a woman or not. Husbands and boyfriends were kept well outside.

The worst job was hanging around the front of the shop watching in case an aggressive thief charged in and grabbed an arm full of clothes off the rail near the door. Which a slight teenage girl couldn't do much about frankly except shout 'Stop Thief!!' after him.

Indeed, and those communal changing rooms in Chelsea Girl followed years at school with those communal changing rooms and showers during adolescence where you were forced to go through naked by bloody PE teachers.

I still recall with horror the embarrassment and humiliation of those showers.

I've just realised that the latter part of this thread has turned into a spontaneous stream of the empirical evidence that JP was saying is difficult to find in research projects (because no-one would fund them).🤔

If they were capable of any such critical analysis/insight/introspection (I have serous doubts), one might expect that it would lead to realising that their attendance on every other day bar this one would also send a negative message. And that having already toughed out the ridiculous cost of them all being there on every day prior, it would be worth glossing over another day of financial incontinence, to not also appear so rude, ignorant and wilfully refusing to consider the counter arguments as today's lack of presence resulted in.

Yes it used to be a zoo in say Topshop or New Look - like a PE changing room! Shudder….

I haven't read to the end yet, but this relates to earlier discussion.

Whether the person who was burgled minds or not, burglary remains a crime.

Voyeurism and exhibitionism used to be crimes. Have they been removed from the statute book? If not, then how are they defined, and does Rose, undoubtedly a bloke, being in the changing room, count as an example of both offences?

Gosh I feel so silly - clearly brain wasn’t firing on all cylinders 🤪🤣🤪🤣

And in many parts of the world food supplies are highly seasonal, particularly before agriculture and food preservation techniques were developed. Animals were available throughout the year, though there are still some seasonal factors.

Her evidence was to how much women are harassed by being forced to get naked in front of men.

Yes no men in changing rooms.
But she was an expert to level of harm caused by the policy. Goes to damages.

Well he’s close to my Dads age and I’d say my Gran & females his age haven’t shared and talked openly about the biology of being a woman.

The horrors of the PE changing room. We had weekly swimming lessons at my school and the teacher had a register before each class. In response to your name being called, you either answered Yes or No. No was code for having your period and being excused. This was all recorded in a book to make sure you didn't have too many 'Nos' in a month.

Also I am Irish - no casual xenophobia intended

If he's married he almost certainly knows enough for ET purposes.