"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 7

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

TT

JP - I'm really glad you asked that, that notion of holding a belief and the relationship to academic independence, just because I hold GC beliefs and I'm an adv board member of SX, does not mean I ignore evidence, I was asked to give evidence to Scots Parl last week, I ended up changing my mind about what should be done about prostitution. And that was after 30 years.
If you think that any work I do in terms of advocacy are tainted....
SC - I'm going to stop you, because you have answered my q. You are saying that you have looked at the evidence,

I wish NF had asked questions, we need this evidence on record.

I have a hunch that JP will be done and dusted within about 10 minutes

Her evidence is in her witness statement.

Agreed, but please don't summon them! Like fecking Beetlejuice...

TT

you were asked to provide answers to 2 qs: are women likely to feel uncomfortable when undressing, and a variation of that.. but none of your work touches on these questions directly
JP - I am an expert in being able to work through the evidence on sexual differentiation and the consequences of that
SC - you have said in your report that no research on the specific qs.
JP - the specific qs, yes, but there is a vast body of research we can drawn on
SC - you say there is an established body of literature that says women will be uncomfortable, etc

I assume key parts will also be quoted in the judges decision, which will then be stronger because it will include whether the judge agrees with her evidence and possibly whether she could be considered an impartial expert

I want to know what she thought and now thinks about prostitution. That's a very significant thing to have a change of heart about after 30 years and will all her knowledge. I am very interested!

TT

but 'more likely than not', do you accept that some women may not be uncomfortable
JP - there will be outliers, the existence of outliers does not refute the broad body of evidence, women have very different r'ship to their bodies than men do
SC - if there is a group or women
JP - let me explain, you are saying it's up to individuals, and therefore we can't make statements about social patterns, it's a classic criticism of sociology, and some may depart but those individual responses are likely to conform to broad patterns
SC - there may be different

“I have examined the evidence and come to my conclusion”
”So you’re not impartial then”

Seems to be his approach.

TT

responses.
JP - yes there may be, but the existence of an outlier does not break the broad pattern, some women may have a different perspective
SC - conclusion on being compelled to undress is strong, you say there are no studies that directly address women's fears

Here it is

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/why-i-changed-my-mind-about-criminalising?publication_id=437954&post_id=177482654&isFreemail=true&r=4p2qy&triedRedirect=true

I'm thinking of this

She was hoping he’d ask her that.

TT

of undressing in front of opposite sex, but there is decades of research that supports that
JP - correct
SC - now about women being compelled to undress in front of the opposite sex, your conc is based on criminal evidence
JP - don't understand your q

You called it!

He knocked that on the head early.

TT

SC - you are drawing upon criminological evidence
JP - that's not correct, it is sociological evidence, not just criminal, and can I just clarify, the q was on fear of being compelled to undress, when I say no direct study, no one has studied fear of those being compelled to undress. You can call it criminological evidence, but much of sociology deals with human behaviour, crime and deviance.
SC - 2 qs, one about getting undressed and one about fear of being compelled to undress.
JP - yes that's correct.
SC - no further questions, thank you.

They got her to fly across the Atlantic for 10 minutes?

TT

J - can I clarify, there are a lot of sub paras letters and roman numerals.....there is a footnote 1,
JP - bottom of page 3
J - any misconceptions about feminist social theory, what is the definition, I wasn't clear,
JP - apologies, it's very awkwardly phrased. What I mean is that there is a body of work called 'feminist social science' it tends to be empirical and suggest how society should behave, I haven't used those because they are seeking to change society. But all feminist work starts from gender critical point of view.

TT

J - what is the definition you are offering
JP - feminist work takes as a starting point the observed social inequality between men and women
J - [repeats]
JP - yes
J - what are the charitable objects of SM
JP - without looking it up, fighting for sex based rights

I really need to up my professional game.

She’s so clear, considered and has great mastery of her subject.

What a lovely person to have a witness in general.

JP was so ready for him wasn't she? It's like he took a water pistol and she came back with a water cannon. Love her.

TT

J - may sound like a silly q, what do you mean by gender critical
JP - sex is immutable, people cannot change sex, it is important to recognise on occasion that sex matters more, sex has an ongoing and enduring social significance
J - you draw distinction between sex and gender

Why do I get the idea this the most significant question and answer the Judge has asked and received in the entire tribunal?