"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 6

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

It's just one big drag act.

The other thing that strikes me

Pressed on whether a woman might fear “an unshaven man with a deep voice” in the next cubicle, he retreated into abstraction: it depended, he said, on “how that person presented.”

Is this assumption by men that a transwoman always presents 'in a womanly way'.

I personally have come across two bearded males making an absolute song and dance. One works somewhere I regularly go - I havent been for a while - he previously was they/them or she/her and he's recently escalated to she/her and zillions of trans flags everywhere. He has kept a male name. He's customer facing. He's nice but frankly I ignore it.

The other was at an outdoor festival recently which I'm mentioned before about a talk about biology and barriers for women in outdoor activities.

DH for a long time thought I was exaggerating about this stuff. It's only when confronted with various things becoming more public and widespread the penny dropped.

It seems reasonable to argue that until the beginning of the 2020s, Stonewall had done a successful job of imposing Stonewall law so women thought they had to suffer in silence, but then various things - JK Rowling public letter, Isla Bryson case, more vocal political support for women's rights - alerted them to their rights.

The alternative is a bit like arguing that until recently nobody minded about the topless model calendars or the racist 'bantz', except that it is more clear cut because there is legislation that specifically confers the right to single sex changing facilities at work.

There's a worker in a public facing role at a busy public facility near me (think library/leisure centre type thing) who openly demonstrates 'support for trans' type gestures including what he wears and flags/pink & blue stripes.

I sometimes ponder whether these little gestures are meant to mean that be identifies as trans /a tw himself. But apart from how he styles his hair (long and with clips and scrunchies etc) he is absolutely male- v much physically (tall, broad, weight distribution) and also how dresses, he talks to others, moves about the place.

The idea that I could only take my cue on if he sees himself as female is by my meeting him in a single sex space in a state of undress is just madness.

Can you imagine what would happen if a hypothetical woman, perhaps called Kellie, turned up wearing a t-shirt saying 'Woman. Adult Human Female' and added a sign saying 'let women speak?' How long would it be before someone would demand she was sacked and organise a demonstration and isn't equality a wonderful thing?

The hypocrisy is sickening.

Fully agree.

My experience of hospitals during this period was that everyone was still on high alert in 2022 - wards being closed after positive Covid tests, very limited visiting, the drive through Covid test area, everyone still wearing masks.

It really doesn't surprise me if people didn't want to bring up an issue like this during this time, or if the general confusion and chaos masked a policy 'choice' that hadn't actually been made by anyone.

Thank you for sharing this.

Interesting reporting with careful descriptions and pronouns usage. Interesting camera angles and footage too.

As a complete aside, I was fully expecting the reporters and presenters on Look North to reflect the regional accents etc of that area and yet none of them did!

It comes back to the wolf in sheeps clothing. We are being told to ignore our instincts that have been developed over generations.

I'm a pattern matcher, so all those affectations that a man can attempt to take onboard, thinking they're coming across as more feminine just screams inauthenticity, and inauthenticity in any form feels dangerous to me.

Absolutely.

I often think that when I park in the car park outside and you can very easily see into the staff cloakroom area where they hang coats and leave bags and there is a massive trans flag on display. Completely visible to the passing and entering public. It sends a v clear message.

(I also feel this way about our local council leaving up the ridiculous parade of flags that line the way in and out of my village)

Authorities are scared of bullies. They collude with the bullying. They create, enforce and participate in the processes that prevent anyone raising an alternative opinion (or even wanting to discuss the issues either way).

That leaves a lot of is spending our days feeling mildly perturbed, unsettled and very sire that if we were to have an issue or feel we needed more support, it would not be forthcoming.

Me too.

What is a 'pattern matcher', please?

I had exactly this feeling watching him give evidence. The affectations are an attempt at disguise. The head tilt, the hair stroking, the airy hand in front of the mouth when he coughed, the checking his nails in a quiet moment all looked fake. And they set off a big fat red 'do not trust this person' alarm bell.

Oh yes, this!
Much better and shorter version of what I have been struggling to express.
This one has been doing my head in.

I understand where you and @CriticalCondition are coming from.

My perspective is, as I’ve said before, men can wear dresses and skirts, men can wear make-up, men can wear jewellery. If we didn’t force rigid sex based stereotypes on people we might have a society where men wearing dresses using men’s SSS would be accepted. Maybe non-conforming children wouldn’t be going down a medicalised path.

Does the respondent get to choose the order in which their witnesses appear? I wonder how the reporting might have differed if Rose had been straight after the nurses and before the HR blob.

Are they all still sat watching the evidence, BTW, or have they gone back to work?

At least two of them were there yesterday.

Pressed on whether a woman might fear “an unshaven man with a deep voice” in the next cubicle, he retreated into abstraction: it depended, he said, on “how that person presented.”

Then what does "presented" mean? Unshaven, man, deep voice? Aren't those all part of how someone "presents"? What other kind of "presentation" is Andrew Thacker talking about?

Yes, the parties do get to choose the order in which their witnesses appear. It's no coincidence that the Trust built a breakwater of management bods between the nurses and RH to try and mitigate the contrasts.

Interesting photo to chose for The Times coverage

He actually does look as if he is 'leering at someone's breasts'. In a vague weird sort of way. It's a creepy photo.

This is interesting (apologies if it has been brought up before). In 2021 there was a tender by a company called Diaverum to take over the Darlington dialysis unit (which appears to have then moved from Darlington hospital). Dale Henderson was named as the clinic manager and his Linkedin has him working as clinic manager for 14 years 8 months.

https://www.diaverum.com/en/footer-links/media/news/diaverum-launches-state-of-art-dialysis-unit-in-ne-england/

Of course, Darlington hospital is probably massive, but it strikes me that HR probably had quite a few dealings with a unit that had staff to be TUPE'd and then relocated.

I'm just wondering aloud whether friendships might have interfered with any potential complaints.

From TT

We will shortly be live tweeting the morning session of day 11 of evidence from the hearing of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal.

group of nurses from Darlington Memorial Hospital, are bringing this ET against their employers alleging sexual harassment & sex discrimination.

It concerns the Trust’s policy of allowing a male colleague Rose Henderson, identifying as a woman, to use the F changing room.

Our full coverage of this case and associated press articles can be found at
https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses-v-county-durham-and

Please note that we report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.

Abbrevs:
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
R/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
RH - Rose Henderson, male colleague who claims a female identity
SC - Simon Cheetham KC, barrister for respondents

(E)J - (Employment) Judge

KD - Karen Danson, claimant, nurse at DMH
BH - Bethany Hutchison, claimant, nurse at DMH
CH - Carly Hoy, claimant, nurse at DMH
JP - Jane Peveller, claimant, nurse at DMH
MG - Mary Annice Grundy, claimant, nurse at DMH

TH - Tracey Hooper, claimant, nurse at DMH
ST - Sharen Trevarrow, claimant, nurse at DMH
LL - Lisa Lockey, claimant, nurse at DMH
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Housekeeper & Well-being officer, at DMH, now retired
AT - Andrew Thacker, Dir of Workforce & Organisational Development at Trust

TA - Tracy Atkinson, Head of Workforce and Organisational Development at Trust
AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience Manager at Trust
JB - Jillian Bailey, Workforce Experience Manager at Trust
TW - Tracy Wainwright, Clinical Lead for theatre at DMH

JR - Jody Robinson, Clinical Lead Manager at DMH
SW - Sue Williams, HR Business Manager

DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital
Ix - Internal investigation
Cx - Complaint
D - Disclosures
CR/CF - Changing room or changing facilities
WS - Witness Statement
WA - WhatsApp

DSU - Day Surgery Unit
RP - Resolution Procedure
TITWP - Transitioning in the Workplace policy

We anticipate a 10am start time.

I don't know how much independence regional news has from the national behemoth, but maybe that distant rumbling is the tanker turning round.

Some of the local reporters do have more of a regional accent and I think that's been a positive choice over the last decade or so. But even they probably still feel some pressure to be more RP.

Morning all, \I expect the threads won't move as quickly today, nevertheless here's the usual reminder.

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Just how lacking in normal levels of empathy does a person have to be to not realise that going into a female changing room when clearly not female would cause some upset at the very least?

Just how lacking in awareness or even common sense?

Or did he find the combination of fawning from senior managers and distrust from female colleagues validating, even exhilarating?

Was this a way for him of demonstrating superiority over nurses? The claimants and probably most of the CR users have many more years of experience over him. Did forcing them all to accept him in the FCR reinforce his sense of superiority?