"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 6

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

Also in the Times:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/5da8b939-f778-4303-9157-09e7bb0f3c20?shareToken=da871269023f673d452759415fcbbcd6

In one of the Thomas the Tank Engine stories, Thomas (or his driver) says he's been running on rails not separated from a public road for years without an accident. The police constable writes in his notebook "Regular lawbreaker." Thomas doesn't get away with continuing this behaviour.

But he'd love to be a cunt - his gripe is he doesn't have one......

Arwen Evenstar, you say.

Somewhere a dark clang, as another part of Tolkien's legacy falls.

These people are living in a world of their own, where they are the sun. And moon. And stars.

Material reality is long lost.

What came across from his evidence was that he didn't care. Wouldn't have occurred to him to ask if they minded because he didn't give a shit whether they did or not. Not proper people, just the support humans. So fuck him, he deserves whatever mockery or opprobrium that comes his way.

We keep hearing this though -

'No one complained before'

'Sandie was the only one complaining'

'They only complained because the others made them sign the petitions...'

'They're telling lies when they're complaining'

'But no one ever complained'

'Only one person complained'

'They conspired to complain'

Round and round and round......

If you don't complain - it is your fault

If you raise your lonely voice - it's your fault

If you complain as a group- it's your fault.

F F S

Yep. The foul Upton was at least honest about it - there was no way Sandie could have complained or reacted, short of fawning compliance, that would have been acceptable to him.

I've said it before, but is feminism the only human rights movement in history that's expected never ever to inconvenience their oppressors, put their needs first or say anything that someone else doesn't like?

It's all mind boggling. He's either not at all well, not very bright or so deeply mired in his delusions or paraphilia that he cannot see or be bothered to see why he is causing distress. And he's been thoroughly ennabled.

He goes swanning about acknowledging his deep voice, having unfortunate anatomy that he plans to use to procreate at some point, acknowledges he has holey boxers, says he's open about being trans, ie male.

At least he hasn't tried the "I am biological and female therefore must be a biological female" thing but as he doesn't appear to be going as far to try and tie his identity up in a MrDrBeth manner I can't get my head around how he functions with that level of dissonance without his head falling off. The only way it works is if any woman who is distressed is either a liar or not worthy of being considered as fully human. Anyone who refuses to play their supporting role in his very strange world is just discarded and he's been allowed to cause this much upset and havoc.
He just ain't that special.

Did anyone else get the impression that he’s actually pretty dim? Or do people think he was being disingenuous? I honestly thought he looked like there wasn’t much going on behind the eyes.

Rose was using the room without any apparent complaints was only during the COVID pandemic. I.e. 2019 (when only a student) and 2023 - first complaint.

Many nurses were using different facilities, face masks at all times and so on. So they may have come into contact with Rose far less or even if so all may have been preoccupied or not seen.

As well it's perfectly plausible that someone could wait until they are settled in a role before harassing others, so they have work friends and a support network.

Overall I feels these years has been given far too much weight in the process.

As well (sorry) we go back to the dangerous blinkers of transgender identifying males having been told they have the "right" to use women's changing rooms. That wasn't even in the old EHRC guidance, there were clear exemptions.

It's all mind boggling. He's either not at all well, not very bright or so deeply mired in his delusions or paraphilia that he cannot see or be bothered to see why he is causing distress. And he's been thoroughly enabled.

As with Upton, I just feel that people like that are not suited to life as a HCP.

I’m sorry I’m behind as usual and haven’t finished the thread, but this is really, really, really pissing me off. If you are looking for something on another ward you go to the nurse in charge and ask. You don’t just march up and start searching, especially if you are a junior member of staff like Henderson.

I can guarantee most juniors would get the full Peggy Mitchell treatment from the nurse in charge in such a scenario.

But of course it’s all fabricated anyway. I’ve known almost anything to go missing from a large hospital, but funnily enough I’ve never known a trolley to go AWOL. Those boxers must be flaming.

You are reminding me of a Smack the Pony sketch, in which petrol works even better

One assumes he's channeling Arwen Undomiel, fairest of all.

Rather than the bearded man who most appears in the films wearing it...

Also

If you don't complain in the unknown to you formal informal internal process followed by the also unknown to you formal formal internal process then we will assume your complaint was merely a concern and will file that down the back of the filing cabinet and if anyone asks we'll pass it off as not even a concern but noise in the system and ask maintenance to check the boiler.

I'm too tired to work up a proper line about the resonances between Arwen, Evenstar of the Elves and Rose, (hopefully) Evenstar of Big Lumpen Blokes Going To Court To Argue That They Can Just Take Women's Shit Because Otherwise They'll Be Sad.

I'm sure someone on here will do it 😁

Reported on Look North this evening (first item) with mostly theys and not many shes
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m002lv3y/look-north-north-east-and-cumbria-evening-news-04112025

From the archived Telegraph article @lcakethereforeIam kindly linked above:

He said “I think the image that you’re trying to portray is there was a largely built man using the female changing rooms. Rose identifies as a woman.”

Mr Thacker stated that he “could accept” it would be an issue “if this was a man who didn’t identify as a woman”.

Although it would only apply to someone who has had surgery, is it inappropriate to think of them being “largely built” rather than naturally grown into their shape?

(Yes, I appreciate it’s a way of saying ‘of large build’)

I must have been asleep when Mr Thacker said that. Presumably the obvious question is, how can you tell if a man in a woman’s space identifies as a woman or not?

Somewhere several threads ago someone posted a link to Rose and wife’s wedding pictures, taken only a few weeks ago. Admittedly they could be digitally altered, but Rose’s black wedding gown was much more flattering than today’s dress. I do find Rose’s appearance today quite mystifying, if Rose has been dressing as a woman for several years.

In an office environment if there was a person who told a sexist or racist “joke” and a person complained , it would not be sufficient for the response from HR to be “nobody else had complained so it’s ok. Carry on.”

He said “I think the image that you’re trying to portray is there was a largely built man using the female changing rooms. Rose identifies as a woman.”

Anyone who has seen RH reads that and has a little voice finishing the paragraph with "but is a largely built man".

Thank you for the BBC North link, @PachacutisBadAuntie.

It’s interesting to see video of Rose, not just photos.

It may be helpful to the GC cause that it was shown to a wide BBC North audience who just happened to be watching the early evening news, not just people who are interested in trans issues.

Absolutely.

And actually, it would be reasonable to question why no one complained and whether that made them complicit in tbe racism/sexism.

There are a couple of witnesses (and mentioned but not present names) who did speak up and try to point out the inconsistencies and the harms. But they were ignored.

how can you tell if a man in a woman’s space identifies as a woman or not?

This is the thing isn't it. We all know you can't!

I'm sure at least one if not more of the nurses didn't know Rose by sight. They also hadn't been informed that a biological male was being allowed to use the female single sex changing room. So seeing him in the changing room meant they weren't pre-primed for a man with lady feels likely being in a state of undress in there.

Rose also accepts himself that he's in the changing room wearing boxers, no breasts, deep voice, tall and big built. Plus, unlike Upton, Rose, even if he doesn't come out and explicitly say it, isn't that delusional that he refuses to accept he's a man as he's open about his trans status and his future plans for children. Plus he wears boxers in order to accommodate his penis.

So walking into the room seeing a half dressed bloke in there wearing boxers with his phone out would have upset a huge amount of women (but Rose hasn't even given it much thought at all apparently).

Regardless of how Andy and Rose think Rose identifying as a woman magically makes it OK both of them know full well there's no bloody difference to the women between Pete the plumber and Rose the roleplayer.