"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

TT

NF Were u aware of issues in 2023
SG No
NF Had come from DSU at that time re CR
SG Believe I was on annual leave an directed to Ally Quinn in my absence
NF In Feb 24, u say in WS. Were u aware Rose [missed]
SG Not until girls came to me

Very clear, thank you.

Do we know which union
would represent Operating Theatre Practitioners? I appreciate Rose may not belong to it, and that Rose isn’t a respondent here.

TT

NF Conduct raised in CR in Feb 24
Yes
NF A mtg between u and employees on 19 Feb to discuss SG
Yes> I've read the transcript but not heard the recording
NF On p290 that shows it, u see speech attrib to u [reads re contacting HR and deciding course of action
Yes, Is about my convo w Ms Smedley

So this is a witness who wasn't named during discussion of the timetable last Friday. They are being very cagey.

TT

SG She wanted me to set out the concerns
NF BH handed a letter to u. [reads] U were being invited to give a fuller account Yes
NF This is an email to HR. U say nobody's happy. No-one is comfy getting changed. Reads re trust has a duty to be sane

My responsibility is day to day for welfare, eg staff sickness. rather than H&S. NF The risk of RHs conduct in CR was this for u to handle or others
SG I had to get concerns on paper and escalate to s'one who cld help and guide NF U refer to duty to safety.

I looked up the publicly available press articles around RH's family and am confident that the reports about his father are correct. Am not going into detail as am unsure it's allowed (or appropriate given that we are all following the tribunal right now). But just to say I wonder if RH is a troubled/troubling young man who just flew under the radar during the covid chaos, but who probably otherwise would have 'benefited' from having his inappropriate behaviour picked up much earlier and dealt with before his training was signed off.

In many ways this is similar to the Fife case, in that a man went mostly unchallenged during training, and seems to have become emboldened by that, with the situation escalating at a time post-qualification where it is much harder to manage them. And the situation in the universities is probaby a large factor in all of this.

TT

NF What did u understand by morally here by Miss bradbury saying morally isnt right?
SG I think she was saying it wasnt right to have a male changing there
NF On p298, [reads re husband not wanting her to get changed] Did u consider this moral or safety category More moral

NF BH says [reads re international nurses] Were these nurses at the mtg
SG I cant recall if they were. I know that when we sent email to HR names of those present. But looking at transcript.
NF Can u see names on the left
SG Yes. [gives 2 names]

TT

J What is an international nurse
SG They come from India
J Do u use this term re nurses in the trust. Cld they be from any country?
SG Yes and yes. They're permanent staff
NF Read this email on p214.

TT

[two threads are going now - there have been serious sound issues. This thread will end]

Sound from court was not working. Has now been restored. 15 mins of evidence missed. Current witness is Claire Gregory , Ward Manager DSU

NF Ms Bradbury ‘morally not right’? You said ‘you won’t get very far’
J what did you think she meant?
CG I felt she felt it wasn’t right a male using a female CR.

Ms B ‘my husband doesn’t feel it’s right.’ Moral or safety?
CG more moral.

NF international nurses, different religion. Were they in the meeting?
CG I don’t recall.
NF names on left
CG reads names.
J international nurses?
CG these two from India also Africa
J any country in the world?
CG yes

all permanent yes.
NF you say I’ve just said in SEAL we won’t get response you want. 19th Feb email did you forward?
CG I think to HR ?
NF you ask ‘when he’s getting changed , does he get changed’ He’s looking around at everyone Doing that or like that - what does that mean?

TT

NF you discuss Rose using cubicles. You say why doesn’t he go there?
CG didn’t know what HR would consider
NF when you take top off he does that? Do you recall gestures?
CG no.

TT

NF coming and going in uniform not an option
CG no.
NF p 302, Ms Bradbury saying echo anonymously what do you understand?
CG local paper Northern Echo

TT

NF you had an idea of numbers
CG 26 people signed so just over half the staff of DSU

26 people signed so just over half the staff of DSU

Gosh I had no idea it was such a high proportion - they were happy to ignore half the department for one man....

TT

Apologies the witness is SUE Gregory not Claire

Who wasn't even part of the DSU.

TT

NF you wrote the email. Smedley forwarded to Laidlaw. You sent material materials a few days later to Ms Smedley

NF this is you feeling things to Smedley from female staff who raised concerns SG yes.
NF question whether exaggerated did you hear that?
SG no

A daily huddle sounds lovely. 😀

And that's just the ones that were brave enough to sign.

Just wondering, how many witnesses need to take their time out of NHS jobs to establish whether or not man has access to women's work changing rooms.
Can that be fitted into the noise in the system/concern equation?

TT

NF ward meeting 5 March. A huddle
SG daily huddle so staff aware of duties

SG A ward meeting is general. Yes brought up.
NF at this point you emailed Smedley re a meeting with HR so HR could advise directly.
SG yes.

It has taken a week to establish that 50% of DSU objected. It's a shame NF didn't ask the Andrews if they could tell him what % of the staff had complained.

For those of you observing, is there still an army of NHS staff sat in the room?

I have asked a higher power what the answer is.

The answer came back...

IMO the RCN are also pretty awful at representing their members’ interests. They made a hash of the strike balloting and don’t seem to have the ‘mettle’ to fight for decent pay settlements for the nurses they represent.

TT

NF language you used communicated urgent attention ’huge risk to female employees, Trust not looking after interest, some are afraid’ . Did you expect fast response?
SG yes.
NF fast solution?
SG no. Because of complexity.

NF meeting you were calling for in March, when that meeting took place was that in May?
SG yes

TT

NF letter with 26 signatories. What did you anticipate from HR?
SG acknowledge concerns and open communication

NF teams meeting 15 April. You thought it was re the letter?
SG yes. A range of managers I was took off guard.