"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

Wut!? Are you serious or paraphrasing?

I think that’s what actually happened!

From TT:

NF then 6 weeks on, employees taking collective action. Had they not done that, would any action had been taken.

AM's response isn't recorded. Does anyone know how he answered this one?

@Gymnopedie He replied either no or not that I'm aware of.

You can avoid them all if you employ competent HR and managers who understand employment law. Sadly the largest employer in the UK does not have competent HR or managers

I think he also said something like how would we/you know (that someone had/was transitioning) if there was no definable process or procedure with the trust. AM replied with a shrug/ I don't know.

Try this https://supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

Brilliant. Thank you!

My iPad and phone are really struggling with Mumsnet so it takes ages to reply.

I am serious I am not 100% sure as my memory isn’t brilliant but the KC said something like I’m not going to tell you.

And the judges let that slide? Although for a non answer it does speak volumes.

Perhaps the number could be counted on the thumbs of one hand?

Mmn. I always get slightly nervous when judges seem to get it too much or appear on side. It's not always a good sign.

Although listening to this balderdash would strain anyone's tolerance.

I think it's more that his patience with the Trust witnesses' flannel has been exhausted. He has been very tetchy with NF on occasion, asking where is this line of questioning going, or why is such and such a question relevant, or haven't you put that point already...etc. The common theme is "don't waste the court's time", I think.

I remember a flat refusal, but she'd definitely said before lunch she'd need a flowchart to work out the answer and would try to come back after lunch on it. Then didn't.

Just catching up as I missed this afternoon's testimony. Thanks to the observers' comments on the appearance of the witness I know exactly what he looked like. I clocked him yesterday in the chair at the end of the row beside the other Crap Andrew. Yawning, fidgeting, collar undone, tie askew. He seemed so dishevelled and disengaged I thought he must be some sort of support person. I'm shocked he was a witness.

Confused by his last statement
and
not being around when the policy was written
given his LinkedIn says he’s been in the role for over 7years
??

It's right at the beginning of the last of four sessions from the hearing (not the judgement) - she says something along the lines of, the EHRC explains it in their submission and it's not relevant here.

Thanks for all the pasting from TT, and the discussion that bounces off that. It's really helpful for me and anyone else who is dipping in and out.
It's interesting that the defence barrister didn't go back over anything with the witnesses, but maybe there was no point!

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1983611672783982770?t=gU-je0FI3wRaKWiFxR6mag&s=19

A blistering summary of today's evidence

Just catching up, but it makes me so angry to know that this kind of money is being wasted on make-work chair-warmers who never take responsibility for anything. His salary would probably pay for two nurses or three health care assistants! 😡

An old friend has been in hospital for almost a month and when we visited her it was obvious that the nurses on her ward, though conscientious and kind, were under immense pressure. Get rid of the workforce experience managers and spend the money on more nursing staff, thus immediately improving their workforce experience.

Get rid of the workforce experience managers and spend the money on more nursing staff, thus immediately improving their workforce experience

or how about remove administrative responsibility from nursing staff to allow them more time to actually care for patients and pass back bureaucratic resolution processes to the HR ‘experts’.

I'm sure he's not bothered.

He'll get his £x00 per hour even if they lose.

It's not his fault his client (or at least his client's witnesses) are all a sandwich short of a picnic.

In fact it's probably a doddle for him.

Thank you so much. This made me tear up - then and now. I watched it live. It was powerful to hear someone say what we can all see ‘the emperor is naked’.

For me it’s not only about men abusing women in private spaces such as changing rooms and toilets - but the relentless erosion and disrespect for sex as a protected characteristic. Duck 🦆 back off to where you came from laydees and biological gentlemen.

I am maybe getting a little bit carried away but I think Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney has got the fair measure of these witnesses.

He didn’t like TA avoiding speaking in actual sentences while being concerned about the concerns about the concerns raised. He contained her and tested the boundaries of what she might admit to.

With Mr. AM - I didn’t get the big HR job like AT so I got the leftover retweeting bits / diverse extensive portfolio of essential workforce activities / LGBTQIA 🏳️‍🌈 flag waving/ / God why am I still working it’s been so long when will my NHS pension pay out…..

He was squirming, wriggling, sliding in his chair, flapping his hands. He
tried to be reasonable but he knew in two minutes no one applied any logic, no one took responsibility and no one gave a rats ass about the care team who had to look at Roses holey boxers. So he tried to squirm his way out of the mess.

I’ll keep saying it. Fair play to the HCAs, Housekeepers and Nurses standing up to this abuse. Well done on getting representation from Christian Legal Centre & Fetto.

Solid case, well organized & well advocated.

If you follow the link above and select the afternoon session of 27/11/24 it literally is at the start of the session.

I have a school friend Amy (not their name) who worked at a technical recruitment company from 1995 onwards.
In the 90's Amy placed quite a few people in middle and lower management positions for the NHS. Typically she might place one person for every 5 CVs that were submitted.
Around the start of the 2000's, as more cash was injected into the NHS, Amy found that both the number of positions and her conversion rate became higher and higher. Eventually the NHS were accepting every CV that she submitted and then ringing to ask for more.
Amy freely admitted that, after a while, many of the CVs she submitted were very poor (there simply were not enough qualified people) but the NHS demand was immense and the money was good.

Perhaps this cohort of managers have now arrived at the upper echelons?