"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

As BC: it would be unkind of me to ask how that’s going for you…

Of course you can avoid all these conversations about feelings and personal experiences if you just have a clear policy that applies to everyone.

Quoting myself to apologise to MariedeGournay for misreading her post! I'm on a roll today...

My admiration for the nurses is endless. They have put up with this shit show for at least two years, and eventually said fuck it, we will see you in court. 👏👏👏

Frankly, if I told my mother there was a man in my changing room at work wandering around in holey boxers and staring at my breasts, and she said she wanted to try to understand my concerns, I would regard that as a rather [ahem] inadequate response. But that might be just me.

TA My intention was to look at cr, and to talk to RH - she may be happy to change elsewhere. But then there was media and an allegation made against me in the media which I was v unhappy about.
J was that why you didn't go to CR

That q by the judge is gold too - 'and that made going to a room in your own institution impossible??'

What is wrong with asking her about her willingness to change and her daughters? It is easy for her to state she would be ok with it. Remember she goes to work to sit in her department or office wearing officewear she has no need to change at work at all.

I see the nurses/complainants asking that being a manifestation of their frustration with the process. They had been trying to raise their disquiet/unhappiness for a long time. But no one had even bothered to tell them the correct way to do so.

Do I get a bonus point for avoiding the use of the word concerns 😂

It’s not even that he was asked & said no. They didn’t even want to ask him. Or even tell him, in the interests of balancing everyone’s needs & interests & to avoid female staff being distressed by him being in the female changing room, he’s required to use the smaller room (which they’d no doubt have ponied up the £7k to make it compliant with any/all H&S regs) where his own privacy/dignity etc. is protected.

Its gone beyond farcical just how terrified management are to tackle the entitlement of these men.

I criticised her on an earlier thread because I thought she had mentioned her forces service and being unbothered without any prompting and therefore making the situation about her rather than the Cs concerns. Now i realise that her comments were in response to a direct question. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the question.

He’s excellent. 😂

What was the allegation made against her in the press?

We don't know. She said she made the mistake of reading the comments and then got tearful and the judge called a break.

A simple question about whether the facilities were inspected as promised was fascinating. An obtuse meandering response referencing media articles, but not even the vaguest hint of an actual reply to the question.

Great response from the judge. Again.

To be fair, NF mentioned that TA replied that she had served in the forces:

TA I thought staff might feel pressured if the letter/petition was signed by a legal team.
NF Discussion moves to the heart of the matter. Asking why weren't consulted when RH started re the cr. Someone asks would you feel comfortable taking your clothes off in front of..
NF And you say yes you would, as you are ex armed forces etc.
J Personal q - would you sympathise - for a personal response.

I'm not watching, and assumed the judge was a woman - no nonsense, to the point, and seems to agree that one TG man should not necessarily be more important than umpteen women.

Take it as a compliment, Judge😄

I’ve been out in town this morning so only just caught up. Came back just before the most recent break when she was getting upset. Was it the questioning about the recording v notes that upset her?

"A Head of Workforce and Organisation Development at an NHS Trust can expect a salary in the range of approximately £75,000 to £86,500 per year, depending on location and experience, based on a recent Band 8c job advert in London. Other estimates suggest a wider range, with average salaries around £65,000 to £74,000 and top earners reaching up to £99,800." It makes my blood boil that we are paying for these numpties.

TT (events still before the break)

TA My intention was to look at cr, and to talk to RH - she may be happy to change elsewhere. But then there was media and an allegation made against me in the media which I was v unhappy about.
J was that why you didn't go to CR

TA Yes, my [missed name, but someone senior] got involved and I .....
J I think we will have a short break
NF I only have a small amount left

Thanks a million for doing it.

TA Promising to go away and look at matter. Felt compelled to try to do something.

'compelled'? - about time too, TA!

I went for an officer selection course at the RAF. Much consternation when it was discovered that a male Leslie had been quartered in with the female candidates.

Ah, I see - thanks.

TT

[We return]

NF By end of this mtg you were promising a process
TA Promising to go away and look at matter. Felt compelled to try to do something.
NF You would go away and there would be a local process
TA Needed to speak to care group leadership c what we would do as a Trust.

TA I think I was clear. To try to find solution. To speak to RH and that would be a good solution - or not if RH didn't agree.
NF Perhaps my q not clear. Back to SG letter of 9/5 - SG response to your q re what outcome C seeking was - team have expressed want safe space for

everyone including RH. No clarity as to what outcome would be.
TA Need to speak to ppl, care group team, RH etc. I wasn't care group leader, not in my ability. Andrew and I giving some assurance they were being heard. NF In interim arrangements made for nurses who didn't

want to share.
TA Allegation made against me re litigation. I stepped back. Helen - lead nurse would take forward along with others.
NF You had no role in resolution procedure
TA No.
J Just one area. You may not be person to help us. Re policy.

Please MNHQ give us back the 😂 reaction.

If I had gone home from work and told my 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 mum that there was a man walking around the changing room on his holey boxers I think I would possibly have been visiting her in Cornton Vale.

Maybe I don't appreciated the magnitude of this hospital, but I seem to remember that the ET witnesses in the Fife ET also CBA'd to go to look at the changing room(s) and alternative arrangements. It is all "I didn't look, I didn't know this person, I didn't take notes... I am not an expert...".

I get the impression that Darlington HR/EDI are all sat together but didn't think to lean across the table to ask "WTF is happening here; can somebody go to see what is going on".

I also don't understand why NHS England (I appreciate that they are being disbanded, but there has to be so much duplication) don't have a big fat central HR/Legal dept somewhere that sets over-riding policies/Staff Handbook that is then amended at local level to incorporate local contacts/systems etc. Local HR would then deal with joiners/leaver/sick leave/low level disciplinary matter and anything bigger would go up to central HR.