"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

TT

you've written to SG. You say, what does good look like as a resolution. What do staff want.
NF Reads - leaving cr while RH there. Team want a safe space where won't be our word against theirs. Nurses should expect you would be fully apprised of their concerns and expect you

to act.
TA They could assume we are trying to get to position to have a resolution for everyone.
NF You came to mtg knowing wouldn't go against policy. T
A No. Trying to get to a solution - v difficult. trying to work with management team to get resolution.
NF mtg described by

@maltravers Else there might have been the chance of an open discussion and actual consideration of rights and dignity - perish the thought.

Can you imagine working with her?
Sitting in a meeting, listening to her going on and on and on?
Support the managers, Support the managers, Support the managers
Concerns, concerns, concerns
Need to UNDERSTAND, Need to UNDERSTAND, Need to UNDERSTAND
Unclear, unclear, unclear
Waffle, waffle, waffle
WORD SALAD

What’s interesting is the recording has (helpfully) confirmed what BH said/did at meeting, which isn’t reflected in this HR woman’s own notes. Her bias is being highlighted, her position taken on the whole thing. No one senior wanted to be the person to have to tell the entitled man ‘no’ or query his behaviour. None of them wanted to go there, so everything appears to have been done to wear down the women - including sticking them in a room that didn’t even meet fire safety regulations.

RH was the white hot ‘potato’ that management didn’t want to get burned by. Again, the Spider-Man meme of all the spidermen pointing at each other. That’s NHS management style when it comes to who was responsible for actually getting to grips with the nurses’ complaints.

Intimidating to be asked a personal question. What, like when you’re going to change/take your clothes off, for example?

you as first stage.
TA Staff were raising concerns. It was called a petition.
NF [reads from TA] My concern was re the petition
TA That's what this recording says. But i also explained this was not my language. I had staff uncomfortable about being approached

NF You criticised...
TA Didn't criticise. Concern. I was concerned about this whole conversation
NF Reads c petition [quickly] Position is not appropriate
TA That's the recording. It's gone off a bit or ;paused or something. In our org we try to support and address concerns

(up to date now. Apologies for the standard of these. Not my forte ☺)

TA That's the recording. It's gone off a bit or ;paused or something. In our org we try to support and address concerns

Is she trying to suggest that the recording has been tampered with to remove bits that don't fit with her notes?

Of course she is. Trying to grasp any straw.

TT

A I thought staff might feel pressured if the letter/petition was signed by a legal team.
NF Discussion moves to the heart of the matter. Asking why weren't consulted when RH started re the cr. Someone asks would you feel comfortable taking your clothes off in front of..

NF And you say yes you would, as you are ex armed forces etc.
J Personal q - would you sympathise - for a personal response.
TA I found mtg intimidating. Why would I be asked a personal q. I was there to listen to concerns. Was taken aback.

TA Inappropriate qs to me, mentioning my daughter. Hostile. To me q is would I feel comfortable undressing in front of a TW and that was my answer.
NF Student nurses might be school leaving age. Your response was I would try to understand their concerns.

When did Rose start asking women when they were going to get changed? When did he first stare at breasts and parade around in holey underwear?

He may have been more circumspect in his behaviour initially and the complaints started or increased when he changed his behaviour.

You're doing a great job thank you!

Thanks for reposting from TT, NotNatacha. You may not be Natacha but you are definitely a 🌟

TT
TA Yes, along lines of what are the concerns. Shouldn't talk c my family. J Or were they trying to find out if you shared their understanding TA Recording doesn't show level of what I saw as hostility towards me. NF To your statement -

V glad the judge pulled her up on this!

TT

NF reads c element of concern c RH behaviour. Hadn't you understood until later that concerns were c RH behaviour
TA Hadn't known c nurse's background
TA Not aware of any specific raised by KD
NF Reads nurse complaint c what RH said

Our head of HR is exactly like this. She filibustered through an hour long meeting rather than deal with the queries we raised about the transition at work policy.

Because TAs perception of hostility and everyone else's is so different? Or maybe there was hostility. Shows benefit of recording.

TT

TA Big mtg, lots of ppl
NF In mtg you talked c your role of protecting trust from legal action
TA Yes, and supporting teams.
NF You said case law makes bio f cr difficult
TA I mentioned case law re manner express concerns and deal safely, and around SSS

How frustrating that must be.

She found it hostile and uncomfortable. 🙄

Sure, Jan.

She didn’t want to take the issue to its logical conclusion and include her young daughters being in the ladies room with a man.

TA Hadn't known c nurse's background
TA Not aware of any specific raised by KD

Irrelevant. RH's behaviour is the point. It wouldn't be ok to ask if a nurse was getting changed if she had not been the victim of CSA.

Absolutely. And why TA us trying to discredit the recording so much.

But to be fair to TA, I criticised her on an earlier thread for mentioning her forces experience during this meeting. It’s now evident that she was asked whether she would be willing to change in front of a man.

But I will now stop being fair to her based on her subsequent comments and pity party about feeling intimidated. What is her fucking job?!! She isn’t a decision maker, she doesn’t manage the process, she doesn’t control policy change and now she cannot sit in a meeting with ‘colleagues’ without painting them as hostile?

Finally, I loathe the performative use of the word ‘colleagues’ by people who utterly disrespect and disregard those colleagues through their actions.

The odd thing is that hospital staff have to give bad news to patients all day long.

TT

TA Wanted colleagues to understand it was complex matter and guidance was at odds. Trying to assure them we were working on it and considering their asks.

NF reads words of Ms Watson c another male member of staff and changing in toilet. In case law this is discrimination

TA Potentially could give rise to that
NF [reads various comments from mtg] in Ms Bradbury c this has been going on for months - various ppl c wanting to come in their uniform, not feeling comfortable changing, etc.

I thought TA didn't concern (!) herself with legislation, interesting she mentioned case law.