"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 2

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.

The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany

Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

TT

[CH has shoulder injury and is having support with docs}
SC - you have been employed since July 21. You set out at para 3 of 71. Sets out shift patterns. So you had a shift pattern up to Nov 22 when it was changed, 10am start first 9.30 - 8 then 9.30 - 6. You say 'every other week 3 shift finishes 6pm this is when saw RH in CR.

Every other week around 6. That is when I sometimes saw him, not every week? How frequently?
CH - not sure, not every 6 finish. Every couple of week
SC - every other week?

CH just depends, sometimes running late, I haven't specifically counted cant give exact figure.
SC - I am going to spend some time with you on your encounters, therefore helpful.

CH is going for the "but look at the shifting patterns, these encounters with RH didn't happen very often" defence.

TT

SC - I suggest once a month,
CH I would describe every couple of weeks, once twice.
sc you say I also saw RH when I changed during day. the timings are important. Firstly, occasionally?
CH - twice a day on shift on break, different times, see RH different times
SC frequently?

Of course, if it can happen sometimes, then every time CH goes to use the changing room then she might be on edge wondering if he'll be there.

One time is too many times. Are they trying to argue that it wasn't often so doesn't have much impact.

TT

SC - once a month? Give us a feel?
CH every so often lunchtime or morning break depends when we get a break SC - para 5 - I first saw RH Sept 23. Between Nov 22 and Sept 23 had you been using CR in same place at the same times?
CH yes

SC - as you know RH been using since 2019. But why you might RH between 22 and 23?
CH - don't know
SC didn't see or hear?
CH - no
SC - no conversation
CH not before SEpt 23 no

Morning 👋

From what the Barrister has said this morning a couple of times, it sounds like RH will be giving evidence.

TT

SC - para 6. you say RH locker his on right hand side. tell us where RH locker was, when did you know RH had locker there and where it was
CH didn't know it was RH locker but remember seeing RH in changing RH just saw him from behind, didn't realise until he said his name

CH that's when i realised he was a man
SC - when did you realise RH had a locker there and where it was
CH when he was walking around in holey boxer shorts

It was where he was walking back up to. there was men's trainers on the floor at the bottom, I was panicking just trying to get out
SC - he said his name?
CH - yes

another misgendering

The only logical thing I can think is that they're trying to see if it meets the bar for harassment which would indicate repetitive exposure. I'm probably wrong though, but it's all I've got.

It's a bloody silly point to make when the law is clear about single sex provision.

I keep coming back to the issue of principle in all these issues, not

ah sure it doesn't happen often, ah sure letting them use the disabled loo is easier than trying to make them use the gents, ah sure s/he probably isn't dangerous, ah sure s/he'll get upset if we challenge her/ah sure s/he really really believes s/he's a woman, ah sure her colleagues think s/he's lovely...

and I thought that a tribunal would operate on the basis of principle not assumptions or expediency or frequency..

Then swiftly tried to cover it up!

TT

SC - you said when you say RH you said 'he said his name' he didn't say it to you
CH - no I just saw him from the back.
SC - you were in the CR, see someone say his name,
CH - I just heard 'Rose' SC - Was Rose in a conversation with anyone?
CH he just had his back turned

SC - so Rose back to you
CH - don't know if he was on his phone ,just heard 'Rose'
SC - you say in your statement para 7, p71. 'on many occasions I saw RH wearing nothing but boxer shorts with holes in. We have established not many, but time to time

In relation to some matter the judge commented "we're a public hearing and we're not over-capacity".

Pointless questions.

Hmmmm the witness shld be saying that after the first encounter she was anxious every time she went into the CR in case he was there, so it impacted her every shift.

SC is an experienced barrister and knows how to minimise things.

Member of the press asking for entry I think

TT

CH - it was more than a few times, I just can't remember how many
SC - 'on many occasions' every time you saw Rose,
CH - not every time
SC what was RH doing otherwise
CH he was next to his locker, on his phone

SC was RH wearing tight boxer short
CH not every time
SC nothing on top half
CH nothing on top half just boxer shorts
SC so either fully dressed
CH either scrubs or boxer shorts

That is Alastair Hutchinson, Bethany Hutchinson's husband.
Well done him, for being there to support his wife and her fellow claimants and for being prepared to help with this.

I know that Mr Baker would do the same.

How many nurses wander around in their underwear? I bet it is not many.

They need to rephrase this. It was never about whether "trans staff should be allowed in locker rooms".

Should men be allowed in female changing rooms?

It doesn't need any of this 'what if they say they really feel like a lady'; 'what if they really like having fake breasts'; 'what if they're wearing a skirt'.

My NHS work has just let me know that they have FOUR events coming up for Transgender Day of Remembrance.

(never having anything related to VAWG and femicide of course)

A real Gentleman

I don't think this is doing SC any good - trying to imply (again) that she is exaggerating or overstating how many times he was walking around the CR in just his boxers.

ONE TIME IS TOO MANY.

TT

SC - RH had in some point changed from scrubs
CH his timings diff to mine, so didn't see him change

when you saw R wearing scrubs then he had changed from day clothes and when you saw RH wearing

underwear that might suggest changing back to day wear
SC - but walking down corridor wasn't walking with scrubs in hand, you'd be walking to put in linen bag

SC - were others in CR at same time CH at 6 oclock
SC so everyone else saw black boxer shorts
CH - yes

SC page 307 witness bundle - the map
SC - looking at the map where are the scrubs kept [CH points]
J - is that just to the left?
CH yes, just below, when you come in from main door, you get scrubs and get changed

J - there's a basket
CH - the basket is in front of a mirror
SC - so could walk into CR and pick up scrubs on way, but might go to locker put back down and pick up scrubs then
CH could do but not usually
SC - same [after shift'
CH I suppose