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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

High Court rules that a trans man......

232 replies

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 17/10/2025 16:24

...... cannot be denied a gender recognition certificate because he is trying to conceive, in an important win supported by Good Law Project.

https://goodlawproject.org/win-victory-in-landmark-case-on-gender-recognition/

Apologies for the source, but it's currently the only free one.

WIN: Victory in landmark case on gender recognition

High Court rules that a trans man cannot be denied a Gender Recognition Certificate because he is trying to conceive, in an important win supported by Good Law Project.

https://goodlawproject.org/win-victory-in-landmark-case-on-gender-recognition/

OP posts:
ChillBarrog · 18/10/2025 22:23

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 18/10/2025 21:33

Did you disagree with the Judgment itself? The Judge explains at some length: I'm not sure what else I would add.

The judgement has nothing to do with the right to reproduce (which is not an intrinsic right anyway).

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 18/10/2025 22:32

ChillBarrog · 18/10/2025 22:23

The judgement has nothing to do with the right to reproduce (which is not an intrinsic right anyway).

It's an Article 8 right, as is the GRC - issuance of which the GRP had made contingent on giving it up. The Judge balances the two in his last paragraph and decides - why can't the Appellant have both?

You might disagree with him, but that doesn't make what he's done unclear.

OP posts:
JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2025 22:32

I might have done some spot welding in the past. Bloody sills! I have definitely rebuilt a 2.4 litre Perkins Diesel engine and shoved it back into my Land rover. The only reason that I didn't wear pink is because I have ginger hair.

Where does this leave me? Apart from the obvious answer that only women know that pink and orange clash horribly?

MistyGreenAndBlue · 19/10/2025 02:53

Howseitgoin · 17/10/2025 23:08

Words have meaning.

'Sex' in essence is about distinguishing characteristics between men & women as a group that includes but is not limited by biological sex given in our social lives we distinguish males from females without ever knowing for sure their gametes/chromosomes/secondary sex characteristics. IE we use typical cues that are associated to CIS people like surface presentation.

In terms of biological sex, 'biological' is a vague concept that isn't defined in law & can have various interpretations that not all women might neatly fit into. That you assume your interpretation is the only legitimate one is at best an opinion given words are dependent on social usage.

Oh Bravo. This is the best codswallop you've come up with so far
Really, very well done!

guinnessguzzler · 19/10/2025 06:29

So bully everyone into saying shit they don't really believe and then point to their 'use of words' as evidence that that's now what those words really mean.

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 09:08

When I first started trying to get my head around gender identity and what it all meant, I remember being baffled at how the meaning of words seemed to be constantly on the move.

"Sex and gender are not the same thing"

"Some people don't identify with the sex that they were assigned at birth"

Surely it's the gender that they were assigned at birth, if sex and gender aren't the same thing. And so on.

After multiple hours listening to Jammiedodger and others (so that I could get my head around the world that my then 13 year old daughter had stumbled into), and with the help of some incredible and patient MN users (my learning journey is all here online 😁), I came to realise that what I was listening to felt like a sermon. That's what springs to mind too when I read an opener like words have meaning, with everything else that then follows it.

But the difference between a religious sermon and what I heard on Jammiedodger (and, amongst other places, in the transparents' group I was in for nearly two years) is that it goes from the innocuous and uplifting to radicalism incredibly quickly.

Here's my agender sermon in return:

Firstly, let's tackle that word "agender". Under normal circumstances it would be simple to understand. It would be obvious that by saying I don't have a gender, I don't believe that anyone else has one either. But no, under gender identity belief, it means I'm queer because I sit between or to the side of gender. Go me.

That's the world that a 21 year old female has grown up in, as mentioned by PPs above.

My daughter is now 16 and still hates her breasts, hates periods and so on. It turns out that the reason she wanted testosterone was not only to have a lower voice (a voice of perceived power), but for a stronger body so she can "beat the bullies". Some of her issues are also sensory and about rejecting a change to her body that she didn't ask for: she's experiencing autism-related puberty distress. Three and a half years ago, she stumbled across some words that made sense to her. Perhaps she wasn't really a girl at all, because none of those "girl" words felt right.

I'm hopeful that she's going to navigate through this difficult stage of her life with a healthy body and a mindset that embraces the reality of being a female with the attitude that there is no right way to "perform" this "role". See above for examples of the performative femininity and masculinity that either sex could do... not to be confused of course with the action "to give birth", which can only be done by a female, irrespective of whether she bites off the umbilical cord and roars or spends her pre-labour stage baking cakes.

Any 21-year-old female has grown up in a world where the meaning of words like woman and man have taken on a quantum-like quality. In this (apparently) enlightened world, they represent infinite possibilities until you grab onto one and it fits with your own feelings about yourself. This is (apparently) empowering. In this world, you can be a man who was assigned female at birth yet goes on to get pregnant and have a baby. In this world you're not constrained by "biological essentialism" because you've already recognised that you're not a woman who society tells you is expected to have babies. You don't need to push against that sexist expectation because it doesn't apply to you. You're a man because you feel like one and everyone tells you that this makes it so.

But alongside this empowering freedom comes the inconvenience of reality. Words still have meaning there too. For example, if you're a female who takes the level of testosterone needed to change your body to resemble that of a man there are some important words with fixed and known meanings: womb atrophy (expected within 5 years), incontinence (impacting 95% of users), increased risk of cardiac arrest (4 times that of other females), early menopause (ironically, what your body wants here is oestrogen and progesterone) and more.

My sermon could continue and if you've got this far, thank you for "listening". I'll end by saying that if you're a 21 year old female who gives birth, the law will record you as a mother. Every child has (or had) a mother, without whom they wouldn't be here. If you've become radicalised to believe you're not a woman, you and your child may miss the chance to explore what that feels like because, unless you tell them the truth, until your child is old enough to figure it out (which is inevitable), they may never know that their mother was there beside them all along. At this point you've shifted from being a victim of harm to a perpetrator of it.

EyeLevelStick · 19/10/2025 09:39

Howseitgoin · 18/10/2025 04:01

But according to GC logic on this thread it's the action that makes one feminine. The trans man concerned isn't 'behaviourally'/"using their body" as masculine if they have a baby remember?

"I don’t understand how a legal declaration that you’re going to live as a man is remotely compatible with using your body to do the most female thing possible."

OK, let’s try again. Being pregnant, or having been pregnant, or intending to become pregnant (still verbs, but stative rather than active) is something that is only possible for someone (i.e a woman) with female reproductive organs.

And for the avoidance of doubt (if the dog leg analogy upthread didn’t work for you), in the same way that all lions are cats, but not all cats are lions, everyone who is/has been/can become pregnant is female, but not all female people (i.e. women) are/have been/can become pregnant.

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 11:53

EyeLevelStick · 19/10/2025 09:39

OK, let’s try again. Being pregnant, or having been pregnant, or intending to become pregnant (still verbs, but stative rather than active) is something that is only possible for someone (i.e a woman) with female reproductive organs.

And for the avoidance of doubt (if the dog leg analogy upthread didn’t work for you), in the same way that all lions are cats, but not all cats are lions, everyone who is/has been/can become pregnant is female, but not all female people (i.e. women) are/have been/can become pregnant.

It's the reason why we bother to categorise 'male' and 'female'.

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 12:21

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 11:53

It's the reason why we bother to categorise 'male' and 'female'.

I disagree. It's one reason why we bother to categise this. There are plenty and not all are related to healthcare.

Of those that are, gynaecology and obstetrics are branches of medicine that a male will never need. Knowledge about pregnancy is obviously part of it the latter.

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 12:43

*part of the latter.

(Too late for the edit button)

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 13:54

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 12:21

I disagree. It's one reason why we bother to categise this. There are plenty and not all are related to healthcare.

Of those that are, gynaecology and obstetrics are branches of medicine that a male will never need. Knowledge about pregnancy is obviously part of it the latter.

There are other differences between men and women and other consequences to being male or female, but if we reproduced asexually I don't think we would group people into 2 kinds of human.

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 14:44

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 13:54

There are other differences between men and women and other consequences to being male or female, but if we reproduced asexually I don't think we would group people into 2 kinds of human.

Yes we would.

Otherwise we'd be scratching our heads about why there were two clear bell curves of human when it came to sports results, violent crime, sexual assaults and more. The usefulness of having clearly understood categories of male and female goes beyond reproduction.

Even sharks, which can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis, have classifications of male and female.

Heggettypeg · 19/10/2025 15:29

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 14:44

Yes we would.

Otherwise we'd be scratching our heads about why there were two clear bell curves of human when it came to sports results, violent crime, sexual assaults and more. The usefulness of having clearly understood categories of male and female goes beyond reproduction.

Even sharks, which can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis, have classifications of male and female.

But isn't that because sharks can also reproduce in the m+f way? I.e.the two sexes are actual reproductive sexes, not just dimorphism for some other reason.

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 16:44

Heggettypeg · 19/10/2025 15:29

But isn't that because sharks can also reproduce in the m+f way? I.e.the two sexes are actual reproductive sexes, not just dimorphism for some other reason.

Possibly so.

At this juncture though, I reckon it's time to either:

a) fully embrace the idea that we all have a gendered soul that is separate from our body, bask in the freedom and wonders of queer theory and agree just how nebulous the concept of biological sex really is

or b) remember that human beings aren't sharks (or clownfish, who actually can change their sex) and that human medical experimentation which leans on the science of other species to justify itself is dangerous.

For those who prefer option b, this is a great way to summarise the harmful impact of it all ⬇️

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/rV-Exeal17s?si=41rwps9aE3b0Fnwv

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 19/10/2025 17:39

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2025 22:32

I might have done some spot welding in the past. Bloody sills! I have definitely rebuilt a 2.4 litre Perkins Diesel engine and shoved it back into my Land rover. The only reason that I didn't wear pink is because I have ginger hair.

Where does this leave me? Apart from the obvious answer that only women know that pink and orange clash horribly?

Not so. Every shade of pink has a shade of orange that works with it.

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 17:40

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 14:44

Yes we would.

Otherwise we'd be scratching our heads about why there were two clear bell curves of human when it came to sports results, violent crime, sexual assaults and more. The usefulness of having clearly understood categories of male and female goes beyond reproduction.

Even sharks, which can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis, have classifications of male and female.

Would we? Or would we just say that some people are more aggressive and violent than others. There wouldn't be sexual assaults because there wouldn't be any sexual differences, just bigger and smaller people.

We wouldn't recognise sex in sharks if there were no male or female sharks.

Talkinpeace · 19/10/2025 17:48

Please list the animals that routinely do not use sexual reproduction
and the plants
(its a short list)

MistyGreenAndBlue · 19/10/2025 18:12

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 14:44

Yes we would.

Otherwise we'd be scratching our heads about why there were two clear bell curves of human when it came to sports results, violent crime, sexual assaults and more. The usefulness of having clearly understood categories of male and female goes beyond reproduction.

Even sharks, which can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis, have classifications of male and female.

Oh god. Don't tell the TRAs that. We'll be inundated with "sharks are non-binary and so some humans can be too" and other assorted bollocks.

JanesLittleGirl · 19/10/2025 18:24

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 19/10/2025 17:39

Not so. Every shade of pink has a shade of orange that works with it.

Oh why did you have to say that? Now I'll have to be honest and admit that I just don't like pink.

EyeLevelStick · 19/10/2025 18:35

Merrymouse · 19/10/2025 13:54

There are other differences between men and women and other consequences to being male or female, but if we reproduced asexually I don't think we would group people into 2 kinds of human.

If we reproduced exclusively asexually there would be no sexes and we would all be clones. Do you mean if we were hermaphrodites?

MurkyWeather2 · 19/10/2025 18:58

JanesLittleGirl · 19/10/2025 18:24

Oh why did you have to say that? Now I'll have to be honest and admit that I just don't like pink.

I think it is to do with complexion, not hair colour. I have a red-headed friend who looks great in certain shades of pink but, even with her help, I have been unable to find a shade of pink that works for my complexion.

Heggettypeg · 19/10/2025 19:05

I hadn't seen that video before! Thanks @BonfireLady
It also reminded me of an aspect that I think is sometimes less obvious to us in the UK, because of the NHS - namely the big $$$ incentive to push lifelong medications and complicated surgeries.

DustyWindowsills · 19/10/2025 20:13

MurkyWeather2 · 19/10/2025 18:58

I think it is to do with complexion, not hair colour. I have a red-headed friend who looks great in certain shades of pink but, even with her help, I have been unable to find a shade of pink that works for my complexion.

Freckles? Pink makes my face look like a pizza. 😓

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 20:29

MistyGreenAndBlue · 19/10/2025 18:12

Oh god. Don't tell the TRAs that. We'll be inundated with "sharks are non-binary and so some humans can be too" and other assorted bollocks.

Ha! Very true.

This whole part of the thread does risk looking like a TRA's dream, with all the talk of how cmplicated biological sex is. It reminds me of the time that Kew Gardens "queered" everything:

https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/queer-nature

It starts with plants and fungi and then ends up bringing "LGBT+" in to round it all off, implying that it's all linked in a mysterious way that really makes sense if you embrace it.

In some ways, it's hilarious that they would try and retro-fit gender identity belief to non-human species... but it stops being funny when you think about a 21 year old female growing up with all of this kind of messaging being the norm. If that's an example your point of reference from childhood and through adolescence, it's easy to see why you might no longer have an understanding of the reality of biological sex.

IIRC Kew had lots of schools visit during the time that this exhibition was on.

Close up of a flower in UV light

Celebrating Queer Nature | Kew

This autumn, join us for a month-long festival celebrating the diversity and beauty of plants and fungi.

https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/queer-nature

BonfireLady · 19/10/2025 20:41

Heggettypeg · 19/10/2025 19:05

I hadn't seen that video before! Thanks @BonfireLady
It also reminded me of an aspect that I think is sometimes less obvious to us in the UK, because of the NHS - namely the big $$$ incentive to push lifelong medications and complicated surgeries.

Great, isn't it? Catchy for those who like rap music (I do) and also very informative.

Yes, big bucks in the US but there's definitely money to be made here too. When I was in the transparents' group, there was a general consensus that there was no point in waiting for the NHS to get treatment. The transwoman in the group and the 18 year old of one of the parents both had the same private surgeon do their penis removals and neovagina construction. Another parent was looking at cross-sex hormones as a gift. Listening to the parents, it was clear how much they loved their children and that they believed they were doing the right thing.

TBF they did listen to my concerns about autism conflation - one dad even asked me for a separate conversation about it. He thought it was interesting but didn't want to know about detransitioners when I brought that up. He said something like "that's not the kind of thing I want to think about. I just want to be supportive". I struggled to understand that, because I'd want to explore every angle. But equally, he was divorced and it was very clear that he worried about losing the relationship with his child if he didn't embrace it all enthusiastically.

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