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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

1000 replies

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:16

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WandaSiri · 10/10/2025 18:27

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 17:54

I'm not sure in what way I'm being dangerously kind.

I agree rights are important. Spent long years/decades fighting as a feminist (I'm old you see).

But that age, and being heavily into self-sufficiency, gives me probably a different perspective.

People's rights always bump up against other people. They tend to limit them and we tend to like to hold firmly on to what we've been given at the expense of others.

But those rights are only those rights because that's how it is at the moment. They don't have to be inviolate.

We have women's sports. Why? Obviously it's because women would get beaten at every turn otherwise. But why is the divide always men/women? Why have we not evolved to create leagues based on height or weight with different criteria maybe for post-pubescent men?

Why should a woman be able to compete in basketball when a 5' man is never going to have a chance? What is the rationale for dividing by one accident of genetics versus another?

I'm not proposing weird sports leagues. But I am saying that being permanently intransigent about the rights we have is a bit graspy.

Added to which (because I'm old and believe in being resilient) would you not accept that women are fairly poor at assessing risk, usually massively overestimating, and therefore our perceptions alone are a poor basis for determining societal rules??

We have women's sports. Why? Obviously it's because women would get beaten at every turn otherwise. But why is the divide always men/women?
Obviously it's because women would get beaten at every turn otherwise. Male athletic performance advantage is huge.

Why have we not evolved to create leagues based on height or weight with different criteria maybe for post-pubescent men?
What is the point? 14-year-old boys regularly beat every athletic record set by adult women. Why embarrass women by making them race 10- or 12-year-old boys?
Some sports already have weight divisions - boxing, weightlifting and rowing are three examples. The weight categories are subdivisions of the sex categories. Males in the 56kg Olympic weightlifting class can lift comparable weights to women in the over-85kg class. That's how big the difference is.

Women are working with a different, less efficient and less powerful machine. They can equal men in the mental and character aspects of sport, but not the physical.

Nothing except age and disability come close to sex in terms of the advantage being male gives an athlete. The only reason to have mixed-sex height categories for example would be to enable men to compete with women. But men are stronger than women of the same height and weight.
Why is it good for elite women to compete with sub-elite men or boys? What have we proved with the winner?

We've been a sexually dimorphic species for a million years or more. I doubt that that will change.

SapphireSeptember · 10/10/2025 18:27

Namelessnelly · 10/10/2025 11:44

Good out. That’s why I love IK and his makeup campaign. It shows even in a conservative country like Algeria, men can wear make up and look great. I love the was he’s normalising male make up.

Sorry, who is IK? Because that sounds interesting!

BloominNora · 10/10/2025 18:28

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 18:18

Well for a start a single cubicle formerly for women is now being used by a man as well. I won't remind myself of the full post - that one answer is enough for me.

But that is no different to small cafes or other places that only have one cubicle or disabled toilets where there is only ever one?

The bathroom with multiple cubicles is still single sex. Women can still use the single cubicle.

Given that only one person can use the single cubicle at a time, I am not clear what women are losing out on in that scenario?

I'm surprised a single cubicle ever had a designation to start with really

JanesLittleGirl · 10/10/2025 18:31

Tandora · 10/10/2025 15:56

The only bullying being carried out is by you.

Hi there, this is not the thread for personal attacks and accusations.

This thread is for a respectful exchange of ideas about sex, gender and diversity.

I'm afraid that I have some bad news for you. You lost control of this thread the moment that you clicked Post on your OP. All subsequent posts stand unless they are taken down by the mods for contravening MN guidelines. This thread is for everyone who fancies posting, whether you like it or not.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/10/2025 18:33

Tandora · 10/10/2025 16:17

Why can't we just have a thread for people who want to be respectful to each other? Why is that too much to ask?

Because Tandora, you are not treating the many genuine posters who want to engage with what they consider to be the problematic aspects of what you believe respectfully.

People are not stupid.

The more they read great questions, question that they would really like to hear a thinking Gnederist like yourself's answer to, being raised and ignored, the less credible your claim to "just want a thread for people who want to be respectful to each other" becomes.

MaidOfSteel · 10/10/2025 18:33

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:15

Thanks so much for contributing this perspective.

I would honestly love to hear more from people like you "in the middle" as you say, on this thread.

We desperately need more people occupying the middle ground in this debate.

Doesn’t the fact that so many women are not ‘in the middle’ on this issue tell you something?

spannasaurus · 10/10/2025 18:34

SapphireSeptember · 10/10/2025 18:27

Sorry, who is IK? Because that sounds interesting!

Imane Khelif. The Algerian boxer

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2025 18:34

SapphireSeptember · 10/10/2025 18:27

Sorry, who is IK? Because that sounds interesting!

Imane Khelif

Namelessnelly · 10/10/2025 18:35

SapphireSeptember · 10/10/2025 18:27

Sorry, who is IK? Because that sounds interesting!

Image Khalif. Male who cheated and entered the women’s boxing at the olympics last year. I just think it’s great he’s trying yo persuade men thst wearing makeup is not just for women. Jeffree Starr is another man who freely admits he’s a man who likes makeup. We need more men like Jeffree

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 10/10/2025 18:36

TinyTeachr · 10/10/2025 16:57

@Tandora I work at a secondary school. We have a (fairly small) number of pupils who identify as other than their birth sex (in either direction) and a member of staff who used to be "Mr X" and is now referred to as "Ms X".

The system we have (and I assume other schools have similar systems) is that there are boys toilets, girls toilets and some single cubicle toilets (some of these used to be staff toilets, some were initially designed for physically disabled pupils to use). Pupils who identify as other than their birth sex can either use the toilets for their birth sex or they may choose to use the single cubicles. The teacher uses one of the toilets for female staff which is a single cubicle, and by agreement does not use the others which have multiple cubicles (partly as several female members of staff who are Muslim said they needed to have a space that they could be guaranteed there would be no biological males).

Is this the sort of arrangement you would like to see more broadly in society, or would this not be acceptable to you as transwomen would be excluded from the ladies toilets/changing rooms?

If this would not be a situation you would support please could you suggest what would be a solution you could get behind?

You have a man who has made a female toilet mixed and coerces everyone (including children) to think of him as a woman, and you think this is a good conpromise?

What has he lost, and women (and children) gained from this set up?

MaidOfSteel · 10/10/2025 18:38

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:22

I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.

I was so similar in this respect. I've often felt like I've had experiences that might be described as something akin to (a very mild version of) gender dysphoria.

As a child I hated anything where I felt that my "femaleness" was brought into play and used to define how people saw me/ what they thought I should be like/ what they thought I should do/ what they would allow me to do.

I thought of myself as being a sort of tomboy. I wanted to be a boy in a way, although I didn't really see myself as/ want to be a boy. But I wanted the freedom of being a boy, to not be subject to the degradation/ inferiorisation of being a girl.

People can only make you feel inferior if you let them.

Namelessnelly · 10/10/2025 18:39

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 17:54

I'm not sure in what way I'm being dangerously kind.

I agree rights are important. Spent long years/decades fighting as a feminist (I'm old you see).

But that age, and being heavily into self-sufficiency, gives me probably a different perspective.

People's rights always bump up against other people. They tend to limit them and we tend to like to hold firmly on to what we've been given at the expense of others.

But those rights are only those rights because that's how it is at the moment. They don't have to be inviolate.

We have women's sports. Why? Obviously it's because women would get beaten at every turn otherwise. But why is the divide always men/women? Why have we not evolved to create leagues based on height or weight with different criteria maybe for post-pubescent men?

Why should a woman be able to compete in basketball when a 5' man is never going to have a chance? What is the rationale for dividing by one accident of genetics versus another?

I'm not proposing weird sports leagues. But I am saying that being permanently intransigent about the rights we have is a bit graspy.

Added to which (because I'm old and believe in being resilient) would you not accept that women are fairly poor at assessing risk, usually massively overestimating, and therefore our perceptions alone are a poor basis for determining societal rules??

A team of 14 year old boys best the USA women’s soccer team. That’s why we have sex segregated sports
do you also apply the same criteria to the paralympics? I mean, surely we could have disabled and able bodied people competing together? I mean that would be ok if we use the criteria you state wouldn't it? .

Gymnopediegivesmethewillies · 10/10/2025 18:44

Hello Tandora
My mum’s 88 year old best friend is a transwoman (transitioned at 70). My daughter’s friend is transmale. I absolutely have no issue with their choice (and acknowledge that they may not feel as though they had a choice). I say this only to preface anything I am going to say that you may find offensive or ignorant. I am not meaning to be either but I would love some answers and I don’t want to ask the two people I mention above because I don’t want them to feel they have to defend or act as a spokesperson for the trans community. As a 55 year old woman I have the following feelings and questions and would appreciate answers at the level that I pose them if possible:

  1. when I was at secondary school, the girls’ loo (as it was known) was the place for hormones, tears, rescuing other girls with san pro, gossip and respite from boys. It was an important place to me. Having boys present would have been stultifying, plus they would have been hanging over and under cubicles trying to spy on or humiliate girls. Only boys would have wanted this. Not girls. Mixed spaces would have been a disaster. Individual toilets would solve the privacy issue but lose the community value. So women would lose.
  2. Transwomen in sport. Have you noticed that you never see trans men trying to compete in sport, because they know they would be unable to. If transwomen identify strongly as female, why do they want other women to suffer as a consequence of an exploitation of an advantage. It demeans other women’s’ efforts for their own fulfilment. It is a true hollow victory.
  3. Similar to point 2, why would a transwoman (particularly those still male facing) feel so strongly about their right to be included in single sex activity eg. a women’s only swim class, especially where mixed sex sessions are available too, and cause other women (who may be there for faith, trauma or just out of pretence) to leave. Why would they want to impose that on a community that they want to be accepted as a part of. Surely it would be kinder to themselves and others to try and assimilate until no-one gives it a second thought (they are just Tandora)?

Women have been subjugated for millennia. Unfortunately it can feel like stealth oppression to be told we cannot have our own space. And again this seems to be a problem imposed predominantly on women and one women are expected to solve.

Your idea of a safe space for everyone is nice in theory but I’m not sure how John Lewis are going to accommodate the range of loos or changing rooms you suggest, let alone for those with disabilities. Individual cubicles seem sad and somehow more divisive but I guess may be the solution?

Wow that has taken me forever to type and think about. I hope you take my questions as well meaning and genuine curiosity and I hope if you can answer them that you find some people to be more understanding.

Thank you for reading.
edited as I got OP’s name wrong

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/10/2025 18:44

Tandora · 10/10/2025 16:25

you have accused me of vile things. Things that are utterly abhorrent.

This is a personal accusation/ attack. There is no place for personal comments/ accusations on this thread.

I would like to use this space to have a respectful discussion. Please could you respect that?

Edited

WOW!

So literally, you can say anything you want about other people as long as you consider it respectful, even if you know very well the person you said it to did not consider it respectful and was genuinely shocked and hurt by your words, but if they say that you get to dismiss it as "personal attack" and justify you ignoring them?

Is that really what you meant?

Tandora, I have got to say that I really, really appreciate your starting this thread, and all the effort you are going to to enforce standards.

True, there's not been much in the way of actual debate or good faith engagement with ideas that you don't approve of, nor have I seen much in the way of critical assessment of your own position, but boy it's still a great demonstration of exactly where you are coming from!

CarefullyCuratedFurniture · 10/10/2025 18:46

What's your position on prisons, Tandora? Should we be placing violent transmen (i.e female-bodied people who identify as males) into the male prison estate?

Most violent offenders are men attacking other men. Is it still appropriate to place those men in the male estate, where they generally continue being violent? Is there an argument that they would be better off in the female estate?

BettyBooper · 10/10/2025 18:48

BloominNora · 10/10/2025 18:28

But that is no different to small cafes or other places that only have one cubicle or disabled toilets where there is only ever one?

The bathroom with multiple cubicles is still single sex. Women can still use the single cubicle.

Given that only one person can use the single cubicle at a time, I am not clear what women are losing out on in that scenario?

I'm surprised a single cubicle ever had a designation to start with really

Do you think there's anyone in the school who actually believes that Ms X is actually a woman? (Apart from some impressionable teenagers and that's a whole different discussion).

So why is Ms X needing to use a toilet designated for women? It just adds to the red flags for me, tbh.

Actually this whole situation in a school is pretty worrying.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/10/2025 18:52

Tandora · 10/10/2025 16:31

I see that respectful debate without bullying and personal accusations / attacks designed to undermine and demean is not possible on this board on mumsnet for those who don't tow the party line.

I would be interested in whether mumsnet recognises this problem and wants to address it.

You know, if you spent a few more posts replying to the people who are respectfully trying to debate with you and a few less complaining that you are not being treated with appropriate respect, it would go a long way to changing the tone of this thread.

Word to the wise - if you don't start talking about the topics people actually want to talk about you are going to lose your audience, and then they'll just start talking between them about all sorts of things you don't want to be said!

Maybe you would like to start by opening up a bit more about how you see GC feminism.

Can you summarise the GC arguments and why women come to it? It would be great to see how well understood the GC perspective is by those who have come to different conclusions, and might well highlight misunderstandings that we can easily work through and really move things forward.

WandaSiri · 10/10/2025 18:55

Namelessnelly · 10/10/2025 18:39

A team of 14 year old boys best the USA women’s soccer team. That’s why we have sex segregated sports
do you also apply the same criteria to the paralympics? I mean, surely we could have disabled and able bodied people competing together? I mean that would be ok if we use the criteria you state wouldn't it? .

And just to hammer home your point, when Jonnie Peacock won his gold medals in the T44 100 metres event at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, his time would have put him in the final of the women's event in 2012 and won him the silver medal in 2016.
So a 1.75-legged man can run as fast as the fastest women in the world. That is what we are talking about.

JanesLittleGirl · 10/10/2025 18:57

Here is a useful link for anyone who would like to understand GC Feminism and why it doesn't really have a connection to the Trans debate:

hollylawford-smith.org/what-is-gender-critical-feminism-and-why-is-everyone-so-mad-about-it/

Waitwhat23 · 10/10/2025 18:59

Namelessnelly · 10/10/2025 18:39

A team of 14 year old boys best the USA women’s soccer team. That’s why we have sex segregated sports
do you also apply the same criteria to the paralympics? I mean, surely we could have disabled and able bodied people competing together? I mean that would be ok if we use the criteria you state wouldn't it? .

This as well - www.boysvswomen.com

Teenage male athletes beating women's Olympic winning records.

Those advocating for women to cede their own sporting category remind me of the old
'But, but....Michael Phelps has longer arms so men with shorter arms should be allowed to compete against women!!!' argument.

If boys are faster than elite female athletes, should males compete in female athletics?

See how the best high school boys stack up against the best female Olympians and World Record holders in Track & Field and Swimming.

https://boysvswomen.com/

Bloozie · 10/10/2025 19:03

I was excited to see this thread at the first post.

23 pages later... nope.

Dragonasaurus · 10/10/2025 19:11

I thought this thread might be interesting…..until Tandora said you didn’t have to be born male to be a transwoman…….um, how not?

Gymnopediegivesmethewillies · 10/10/2025 19:11

Gymnopediegivesmethewillies · 10/10/2025 18:44

Hello Tandora
My mum’s 88 year old best friend is a transwoman (transitioned at 70). My daughter’s friend is transmale. I absolutely have no issue with their choice (and acknowledge that they may not feel as though they had a choice). I say this only to preface anything I am going to say that you may find offensive or ignorant. I am not meaning to be either but I would love some answers and I don’t want to ask the two people I mention above because I don’t want them to feel they have to defend or act as a spokesperson for the trans community. As a 55 year old woman I have the following feelings and questions and would appreciate answers at the level that I pose them if possible:

  1. when I was at secondary school, the girls’ loo (as it was known) was the place for hormones, tears, rescuing other girls with san pro, gossip and respite from boys. It was an important place to me. Having boys present would have been stultifying, plus they would have been hanging over and under cubicles trying to spy on or humiliate girls. Only boys would have wanted this. Not girls. Mixed spaces would have been a disaster. Individual toilets would solve the privacy issue but lose the community value. So women would lose.
  2. Transwomen in sport. Have you noticed that you never see trans men trying to compete in sport, because they know they would be unable to. If transwomen identify strongly as female, why do they want other women to suffer as a consequence of an exploitation of an advantage. It demeans other women’s’ efforts for their own fulfilment. It is a true hollow victory.
  3. Similar to point 2, why would a transwoman (particularly those still male facing) feel so strongly about their right to be included in single sex activity eg. a women’s only swim class, especially where mixed sex sessions are available too, and cause other women (who may be there for faith, trauma or just out of pretence) to leave. Why would they want to impose that on a community that they want to be accepted as a part of. Surely it would be kinder to themselves and others to try and assimilate until no-one gives it a second thought (they are just Tandora)?

Women have been subjugated for millennia. Unfortunately it can feel like stealth oppression to be told we cannot have our own space. And again this seems to be a problem imposed predominantly on women and one women are expected to solve.

Your idea of a safe space for everyone is nice in theory but I’m not sure how John Lewis are going to accommodate the range of loos or changing rooms you suggest, let alone for those with disabilities. Individual cubicles seem sad and somehow more divisive but I guess may be the solution?

Wow that has taken me forever to type and think about. I hope you take my questions as well meaning and genuine curiosity and I hope if you can answer them that you find some people to be more understanding.

Thank you for reading.
edited as I got OP’s name wrong

Edited

Oh my goodness I meant out of preference not pretence! I apologise. What a slip up given the subject matter 😳

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/10/2025 19:22

Policing women's language and behaviour has run through trans extremism as in a stick of rock. Tone policing, threats of violence, intimidation - all of it.
"Don't use those words"
"Don't use that tone"
"Always smile when you find a man in a dress in the women's changing room - never walk out without permission"
"Never express your fears for you children caught up in this ideology - abandon your parental responsibilities or they'll disown you"
"Never challenge the sacred caste. Not even 'respectfully' ".

Their way is George Orwell's way : "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command".

This thread with the incessant policing of women's language, tone and words is the perfect exemplar of the transactivist attitudes to women.
Women allowed to speak only when given permission.

See it for what it is.

ArabellaSaurus · 10/10/2025 19:25

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/10/2025 18:44

WOW!

So literally, you can say anything you want about other people as long as you consider it respectful, even if you know very well the person you said it to did not consider it respectful and was genuinely shocked and hurt by your words, but if they say that you get to dismiss it as "personal attack" and justify you ignoring them?

Is that really what you meant?

Tandora, I have got to say that I really, really appreciate your starting this thread, and all the effort you are going to to enforce standards.

True, there's not been much in the way of actual debate or good faith engagement with ideas that you don't approve of, nor have I seen much in the way of critical assessment of your own position, but boy it's still a great demonstration of exactly where you are coming from!

Yes. To engage in constructive dialogue requires a certain amount of respect in both directions.

Unfortunately, the OP has insulted, smeared, misrepresented and obfuscated so often that I think it would require a suggestion of some self awareness and humility to get to the point where we could move forward with a dialogue.

Many of us have asked respectful, polite questions many times, only to receive answers so frustratingly evasive they feel dishonest.

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