A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

Maybe off topic, but this is why I dislike drag queens so much and don't understand why it's not considered as disrespectful as, for example, blacking up. Can anyone explain?

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men). I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking. It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people.

Tandora, I don't know whether you've read the Supreme Court judgment handed down on April 16th, but if you haven't you really should. It makes quite clear that for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 which deals with discrimination in the provision of spaces and services and even sport, all of these are automatically mixed-sex unless specifically exempted to cater for one or other of the nine protected characteristics. When it comes to single-sex spaces, services and sports, the exemption is that these are divided on the basis of birth sex, not legal sex as altered by a GRC. The judgment also clarified that you can't have provision which includes people with more than one protected characteristic unless all these people share both characteristics.

In case you're not familiar with the Equality Act 2010, the protected characteristics are: age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.

This means that it's perfectly OK to have a single-sex space or service for natal females or natal males, but not for women and transwomen (or men and transmen) because they don't share either the protected characteristic of sex or that of gender reassignment. The legal consequence of this is that as soon as you admit any males into a female space, regardless of how they identify, you cannot lawfully exclude any other men who wish to use it.

If you consider this to be totally dogmatic and binary thinking you need to take it up with Parliament who passed the Equality Act 2010 and with the Supreme Court which has just ruled on its meaning.

A 6 year old can explain why males and females in the same space is 'mixed sex'. And we are supposed to believe this is an academic?

The thing is, Tandora, we can't tell the difference between a "trans woman" and a man, because the only difference is in the "trans woman's" head.

This is why we can't legislate for the difference between them, or have spaces which include one but exclude the other.

Using the term "trans woman" arguably obscures what it means to be a male person with a transgender identity. Because it obscures the fact that they are male.

It is well known that, when asked the question, "Should trans woman be allowed to use women's toilets and changing rooms?" some respondents do not know whether a trans woman is a male person who believes they identify as a woman or a female person who believes they identify as a man.

Another day, another thread where Tandora accuses rape survivors of weaponising their trauma.

On a thread where Tandora has demanded 'respectful debate'.

It's sort of an encapsulation of gender ideology's attitude toward women generally.

I really hope the lurkers and unsure see this display of how the 'be kind'er's treat women who won't capitulate entirely and without complaint to mixed sex spaces.

I'm not sure in what way I'm being dangerously kind.

I agree rights are important. Spent long years/decades fighting as a feminist (I'm old you see).

But that age, and being heavily into self-sufficiency, gives me probably a different perspective.

People's rights always bump up against other people. They tend to limit them and we tend to like to hold firmly on to what we've been given at the expense of others.

But those rights are only those rights because that's how it is at the moment. They don't have to be inviolate.

We have women's sports. Why? Obviously it's because women would get beaten at every turn otherwise. But why is the divide always men/women? Why have we not evolved to create leagues based on height or weight with different criteria maybe for post-pubescent men?

Why should a woman be able to compete in basketball when a 5' man is never going to have a chance? What is the rationale for dividing by one accident of genetics versus another?

I'm not proposing weird sports leagues. But I am saying that being permanently intransigent about the rights we have is a bit graspy.

Added to which (because I'm old and believe in being resilient) would you not accept that women are fairly poor at assessing risk, usually massively overestimating, and therefore our perceptions alone are a poor basis for determining societal rules??

I agree, @Waitwhat23. I suspect that the only ‘respectful’ dialogue that Tandora will accept is that which agrees that there is a magical female essence that biological men can easily feel, that human beings can change sex, and that no woman has any right whatsoever to privacy or dignity in their single sex spaces - or, any single sex spaces at all.

Added to which (because I'm old and believe in being resilient) would you not accept that women are fairly poor at assessing risk, usually massively overestimating, and therefore our perceptions alone are a poor basis for determining societal rules??

I don't believe that women as a class are poor at assessing risk

It's not something that can be felt or recognised by a man.

A man who thinks or feels his sex is female only has the feeling. He doesn't know what a real woman feels like because he isn't one.

Even if being trans does show eventually as having a specific cause it doesn't mean he is ever a woman.

He is a man with a condition caused by x,y or z.

On the contrary Tandora, I think it is you who is not treating posters with respect or playing a straight game.

Indeed your reply to me right there is a great example.

You are an intelligent woman. You have interacted with me many times. Do you really think it's likely that I posted the above because I don't think I "know how to be respectful to other posters, even if you disagree with them"?

No.

So please stop these childish deflections.

If you want genuine debate then engage with the hard questions, especially the ones that ask you to think critically about your own perspective. It really is the best way to learn.

Not trans. Trans ally though. It'd be lovely to see some genuine debate. 😊

Wonderful!

When do you plan to start?

Women wishing to retain their legal rights to single sex services is now being described as 'graspy'.

The idea that women deserve a right to fair and safe sports without going down some sort of bizzaro range of height/arm length/I don't know, lung capacity leagues is truly jawdropping.

'Graspy'. Fuck me.

How would you manage, in real life, a space designated for women and some men?
How would you differentiate between men you believe should have access as they are trans identifying and men you don't believe are trans identifying and therefore should not have access?

What criteria would you use to decide which men were allowed in and which men were not?

Some men are black, no man is a woman, therefore racism is infinitely worse than misogyny would be my best guess.

Men get off on pretending to be women but don't get off on pretending to be black is another guess. I mean this in the sense of back in the 60s and 70s when the idea that men could become what they can't become started to take off in a small way there were no white male academic getting off on the thought of themselves as black men, so transracialism never got pushed.

From every thread I see with Tandora on there seem to be a big elephant in the room - men with AGP. Tandora does not believe that AGP is real and that a lot of (pretty much all of them) middle aged MTF trans are fetishists? Is it all a nasty lie made up by TERFs?

But seriously. How are we, as females, expected to deal with men who are using us as props in their sex fantasy?

edited for poor grammar ))

I might be misreading, but how is that scenario a compromise for women and girls? The compromise is for trans identifying children isn't it?

No I'm sorry, that might follow for some women but it doesn't apply to me.

I know myself to be a "woman" or a "female" person simply because these are the names that apply to the body I have.

If you tell me I'm wrong about what those names mean, because a "woman" or "female" person could have a body just like my husband, and if I believe you, then I will know that I am not a woman after all.

Do you see? It's not the name "woman" that I identify as regardless of the body, it's the body that I am regardless of the name.

And I consider the way my body exists in space as itself and with others, and how is framed in culture significant. I feel connection to the millions of others who live or lived with the same type of body and the way it was constructed culturally in different ways at different times, what it meant for them and me socially and personally, how it affected our relationships and our opportunities and how others saw us and how we saw ourselves.

You speak of "diversity" but what you really want is for me to ignore my body and the truth that it does bring consequences so that someone else's narrative can define me for their own benefit.

Diversity is all those millions of women, half the human race, living all their different lives. Why is that not enough? Why is it only of value to you if it includes men too?

I know you will not reply because these are things you are unable to deflect or belittle. You only reply to posts that allow you to maintain your broadcast mode.

But still, with respect and the spirit of debate and learning, I say them for others to read and perhaps engage with.

By encouraging the idea that men can sometimes be excused for using women's spaces for a start.

I think that some things are simple. Do men and women and LGB people have sex based rights or don't they?

Some things are more complex. Does a 5 ft tall man have the right to have fun playing basketball? I say no, but I do say he has the right to - for example - try to set up a club for shorter men to play basketball together in a way that allows 5 ft tall men to participate in a reasonably fair game.

"What is the rationale for dividing by one accident of genetics versus another?" Are you asking for the rationale for women's rights? I'm not going to answer that, but if you want to argue why women's shouldn't have them then go for it!

Well for a start a single cubicle formerly for women is now being used by a man as well. I won't remind myself of the full post - that one answer is enough for me.

It’s a shame it’s just Tandora on here. Where’s the other ones wanting nuanced debate not in an echo chamber?

Here's one problem with what you've written. You identify it yourself but then fail to apply it to places like public toilets:

I know that toilets are not the only issue and that rape crisis centres and refuges and hospitals also represent areas where even an "innocent man" can cause major trauma.

I have CPTSD in large part bc of assaults by men and boys. I get flashbacks, which include reliving traumatic events, pain, and terror lasting from a few hours to days or even weeks if I see a man, including a transwoman, in female toilets or changing rooms. I have no control over this. Others here have said they have similar trauma responses. There are also women who can't share loos or changing rooms with men without violating their religious rules so if there are men, they either self exclude or deal with the pain (guilt, remorse, sometimes fear of eternal damnation, recrimination or punishment by others, etc.) of having violated their religion. Then there are women who are uncomfortable with men in their single sex spaces for their own reasons.

Why do you think that the presence of men in areas like public toilets and changing rooms does not cause major trauma?

“But why is the divide always men/women? Why have we not evolved to create leagues based on height or weight with different criteria maybe for post-pubescent men?”

We have. There are categories for people with disabilities, for people of different ages, and in some sports for people of different statures.

DARVO

Implying that somebody else is playing the victim, then immediately stepping into a victim role (all communicated with some very respectful passive aggression). Beautiful demonstration of DARVO. Ineffective, but still a really clear example.

Bloody hell, it really didn’t take long for Tandora to revert to the usual lack of respect, did it?