TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

Of course you should. But it's in no way comparable to irreversible changes to your body based on a fantasy.

And yours is not comparable to @Bombshelter 's experience.

And yours is not comparable to 's experience

I certainly never said that it was. I made no comment whatsoever about that user's experience other than to say "I'm so sorry".

Also - gender dysphoria is not a fantasy.

As usual, late to the thread, but this time not answering any post in particular.

Someone (can't remember name) was going on at length about logical fallacies, and I have a thing which makes no logical sense to me.

Transwomen are clear that they are women. Bear with me, there is no need for anyone to agree or disagree about it: that is their belief. Transwomen are women.

If that is so, why do they believe that it is transphobic not to want males in female-only SSS? They are not male, according to their sincere belief, but female, and there can be nothing transphobic about excluding males. Only if they were male would they be being excluded.

(At this point I fully expect someone's head to vanish in a puff of logic. Whose, I have no idea.)

Unhappiness with the perceptions of the gender that has been imposed on you due to your sex is not. Believing you are the other sex when you have no idea about what that is, is, frankly, a fantasy.

Yes, I hear you, you think being trans is an exercise in fantasy.

@Tandora how does a person with a male body know what it feels like to be a female carrying a live baby inside you that is condemned to die? Whatever you do there is no good outcome.

That is what my biology did. That is what my female body did. And no transwoman ever so far born can understand what that feels like. Not ever.

no matter what their cognition is.

edit for spelling.

That is the nub of it @Tandora . I do not believe that a male child, brought up in isolation from females, not even aware that they existed, could look at his male body and somehow know that he is not male, but female

Haven’t read the full thread (I mean it is 32 pages!) but wanted to pop on and say that reading the arguments with TRAs on here is what peaked me. The arguments of the gender critical mumsnetters just made more sense, whereas every argument from a TRA didn’t hold much water. They really do themselves no favours! I was 100% “be kind” when I discovered mumsnet - do not underestimate the impact your reasoned and thoughtful replies have. I know it’s exhausting but I’m grateful.

I'm very sorry that you went through this.

A transwoman would not have your experience. I have never had your experience. Many women never will have had this experience - for a wide range of reasons.

We all have our own experiences - some of them truly awful. There is no reason to dismiss transwomen because they don't share your experience.

You don’t get what I’m trying to say.

plenty of women have had my experience. millions and millions. And many have died because of it.

no transwoman ever born has had it. None. No matter what cognitive experience they have.

That’s why some posters resort to smears and insults, to attempt to deflect from their extremely poor arguments.

I understood perfectly and my response was as above.

A transwoman would not have your experience. I have never had your experience. Many women never will have had this experience - for a wide range of reasons.

We all have our own experiences - some of them truly awful. There is no reason to dismiss transwomen, and their experience, because they don't share your experience.

But we could have had that experience, a transwoman never could. It is a purely female experience that resonates with me at least as a woman.

I hate the overuse of empathy on these boards as it's misused. Suffering in, as in you've been there. Sympathy is suffering with. Basic Greek. But I can get closer to empathy with this than any transwoman ever could as in I had the capacity for it to happen to me

@Bombshelter , I am so sorry to use your tragedy in this point and will not use your bravery in sharing it again.

Like... you, you mean? 🙊

If he had the means, would he fashion himself a vulva, vagina and breasts even though he had never seen any?

But we could have had that experience.

So what? Why is what could have been more important than what is? What is the relevance of it?

I could have had that experience if one of my pregnancies had gone differently, I'm so lucky that they didn't.

A woman who was 'socially infertile' could have had that experience if only her circumstances were different/ she was in a position to have a baby.

An infertile woman could have had that experience if only she had not been infertile or fertility treatment had worked for her.

A woman with swyers syndrome or CAIS could have had that experience if only she were born with a uterus.

A trans women could have had that experience if only she weren't trans.

And what?

I can't stop you believing other than you do.

If you had more insight into trans experience, you would likely see things very differently.

That's similar to how I changed my mind, so many things just didn't add up and the explanations I was given by transactivists were unsatisfying. Also I got banned from a couple of online spaces for openly questioning all this which I was really taken aback by. How could it be such a forbidden topic in leftie spaces, I wondered.

So you can't answer the question?

So you believe that a male who was completely unaware of the existence of females could still look at his body and 'know' that he was female?

No Tandora. I don’t have poor arguments, that’s you and your friends.

A trans woman if she wasn’t trans would never have that experience because she would be a man.

We need an 'I despair' emoticon.

No I'm saying your question was complete bollocks as you well know. Plus the "make it make sense".

Of course that's not what I said - as you well know.

Your previous question was about the justification for medical intervention where there is nothing "wrong" with the body. So I gave some examples of other cases, where yes there is justification for this.

Gender dysphoria is a medical problem certainly. However, there is nothing "wrong" medically with the body. What is wrong is that the is acute psychological distress associated with having a body with physical characteristics that "looks" wrong to the person based on their neurodevelopmental understanding of their sex.

if you say so😊