TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

I think having a "cognition" (bloody stupid word) of one's sex relies on there being a group to intuit that you belong to. It can't exist in isolation from society.
It's an I'm like these people not those people. It is very reasonable to ask what it is about the word woman that makes someone hang their cognition on that word rather than the word man, and all it could possibly be is observation of other people using the word woman and feeling a sense of identity with them.

If a child grew up in a community where 50% of the people were trans, and that didn't adhere to sex stereotypes - so had no association between sex and body type, or sex and behaviour - how would the child know which sex they cognitively belonged to? How would they associate meaning to male and female at all when they can see no difference between the groups?

The doctor who told me my 15 week pregnant baby had no chance of surviving certainly talked to me about tfmr

Cognition is a "bloody stupid word"?

lol.

So the different aspects of sex are chromosomes, hormones, gonads, genitals and psychology. They usually align but sometimes they don't.

If a person's chromosomes, hormones, gonads and genitals are male and it's only their psychology that's female, wouldn't it make more sense to treat them as male?

In any case, single sex provisions (toilets, sports) are all about our physical bodies, i.e. chromosomes, hormones, gonads and genitals, so I can't see why psychology would be relevant.

Off point but I'm so sorry x

Cognition is a "bloody stupid word"?

That's the part of my post you see fit to respond to? There's a reason I didn't ask you any questions.

honestly I didn't read after that, as I thought it set the tone for the likely coherence/ contribution of the rest.

Try it, there's an interesting thought-experiment.

What are your thoughts on males who've reached the conclusion they have a "female gender identity" due to autogynephilia?

It might be helpful to read the whole post, instead of cherrypicking a sentence or phrase which you think you can use to bolster your position,

This is where get lost and don’t understand . The single sex spaces as they currently are organise around physical sex.

and that’s observable in 99.8% of people.

How could we even begin to organise them around cognition only? What would be the standard, how would it work?

I believe sex is determined by gamete production, which to all intents and purposes means it's defined by genitalia for reasons you well know. It seems odd that you think gender is not sex and has nothing to do with genitalia, sex does not relate to genitalia either, but changing genitalia is relevant to helping issues relating to gender.

Para 2. When someone doesn't have a gender identity (or when they say they do and it matches their unchangeable sex) we don't "ask how it affects the person and what can be done about it". We only ask when something is wrong (which, by definition must be the head or the body, and given you support medical transition presumably you believe it is the body that is wrong.

Good point. Debbie Hayton, as an example.

All of my questions are genuine. I appreciate some might be tougher than others.

Surely you want difficult questions? How can you be certain you are correct unless you test your views agains the toughest questions?

It would need to rely on honesty, which obviously falls down immediately.

sigh

I know I am female only because that is the name for the body I have in the language I speak.

But it's just a label.

So if you tell me that female actually means something else, I wouldn't say "oh I must be someting else then", I'd need to know what that thing was to know if I am it. And I would continue to be the thing that used to be called female. Because the reality exists outside the label.

Ironically when talking to Genderists I often avoid referring to myself as a woman exactly because what they think "woman" means is not necessarily what I understand by the word, and their version may well not describe me at all. (FWIW in Genderist terms I see myself as an Agender Person of Female Body.)

And this is getting to the heart of the issue.

Genderists assume boring old female people like me will continue to see outselves as "women" even as they tell us the very basis on which we know ourselves to be women is flawed and wrong.

But why on earth would we?

It's a total and utter failure of imagination. Women are literally assumed to just carry on womanning in the same old way despite being told the entire concept no longer exists because fundamentally these Genderists, for all their fluid this and diverse that, are unable to conceive that we are not the gender stereotypes they look at us and see. To the trans imagination we are simply an unproblematic, unquestioning "woman" background that allows them to perform their desired gender.

Exactly. Women's toilets are for people who actually have a vagina rather than a penis. They're not for people who think they have a vagina rather than a penis, or want to have a vagina rather than a penis.

We only ask when something is wrong (which, by definition must be the head or the body, and given you support medical transition presumably you believe it is the body that is wrong.

I don't believe either is "wrong" - why does that even make sense?
It's just different parts of a person. Yes for most people these parts look one way/ "match" in a predictable way. For other people they don't. Neither is wrong. They are just different.

I'm happy to answer your questions if they are genuine. There's only one which I declined, because I don't wish to be subject to a pile of abuse by answering honestly.

But why is it seemingly considered that the body is wrong and must be changed rather than the mind?

why is it seemingly considered that the body is wrong and must be changed rather than the mind?

Nobody thinks this - maybe in the beginning of the 1900s but even then not really.

What about my question about afghani girls identifying as boys so they can go to school? And why that isn't happening?

The reason people seek medical interventions is because it may be the only effective means of relieving the acute psychological stress associated with gender dysphoria, and allowing trans people to feel comfortable in their bodies.

These treatments could be compared to types of cosmetic surgeries that might be performed on the NHS because of say profound psychological distress caused by a "disfigurement" or something. It's not that the body is "wrong", it's just the person can't live with it psychological because of how "wrong" it looks to them.

Well given the prevalence of inappropriate hormones, breast binders, Helen Webberly's 'clinics', Mermaids etc , the absolute grift that is private surgery specialising in creating gaping wounds and pieces of your arm masquerading as genitals, I'd say that's not true.

This is relevant in Iran (disclaimer: I am not an expert in Muslim theology but this is my paraphrase)

The Shia clerics in Iran have produced a justification for transing the gay away, which is, there's the soul and there's the body, and if the two are out of wack then the soul takes precedence, and therefore it's permissible to adjust the body to align with the soul.

Strip away the religious terminology and you've got something not a million miles away from what western TRAs say.

I'd love to hear a Zoroastrian take on this, but what are the odds...