TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

Totally. It's indoctrination.

And as demonstrated on this thread, falls apart under questioning.

Fortunately for Sandy Peggie, Naomi Cunningham was able to say 'please answer the question'.

Well he managed not to throughout his entire medical degree. Can't think why.

o if a psychologist thinks a gender dysphoric person is at risk of suicide due to dysphoria, and that medical transition is the best cure, he should never offer medical transition, he should wait for the gender dysphoric person to ask?

Correct. I have never known a psychologist who would propose medical intervention to a dysphoric person, and would consider this completely unethical. It would be like a doctor proposing abortion or sterilisation. This is not how things work, it wouldn't be done.

But how do they know. Without referring to outdated sexist gender stereotypes how would someone “know” they were the wrong sex? And why should their inner knowing mean they get to use the spaces of the opposite sex?

Now I think we're getting down to some answers to the questions that went unanswered on the previous thread. I'm not asking Tandora any further questions because I think I know enough now to be not interested in the answers.

What is trans? Tandora believes that people have a physiological kind of brain-sex, which is sometimes called gender. That your brain-sex gives you a built in sense of conviction that you are whichever sex your brain-sex is regardless of body-sex. That trans is when your brain-sex is mismatched to your body-sex.

Why do I think this is wrong? 1) From definition. Sex by definition is a reproductive category. It's about bodies, not brains. If someone has a brain more typical of the other sex that's fine, just like if they have a height more typical of the other sex or a shoulder width more typical of the other sex. 2) From developmental observation. Toddlers don't know they're a boy or a girl till you tell them. You can observer them building their understanding, often going through a phase of thinking girl/boy is a question of what clothes they're wearing or what hairstyle someone has, until adults explain it's actually about bodies. Inbuilt conviction? No. Whatever it is, it's learned.

Why should it reorder society? Tandora thinks brain-sex is just as much 'actual sex' as body-sex, and that brain-sex causes people to become deeply distressed if their body-sex is recognised and mentioned.

Why do I think this is wrong? Single sex facilities, sports etc were instituted because of bodies not because of brains. Also, pragmatically, it is not possible to sort facilities by brains. If you let in male people who have female brain-sex you also have to let in male people who have male brain-sex as there's no way to distinguish the two categories.

So if I say my cognitive reality is that I’m 6ft tall and a supermodel, everyone has to accommodate that?

Haha! I knew you wouldn't answer it.

In case you just misreadI was asking what this is based on

"It is to have been born with observable physical characteristics of one sex, but to have the cognition of self as being the opposite sex."

What is their cognition of self as being the opposite sex based on?

So by your definition if your gender identity is different from your sex then your gender identity is, and I am not sure I can think of a better way of putting it, quite simply wrong?

But your statement you just made - "I am female" - this is a cognition. It's something you know about yourself. This is what psychologists mean by "gender identity".

It is a cognition based on observable fact. How then can a man have a cognition that he is female despite being observably male? If there is no observable factual basis to his belief, surely that qualifies as a delusion?

It could be described as "wrong" if you believe that sex is defined by genitalia, yes.
But whether it's right or wrong is also besides the point. What's important is that it is. Then we need to ask how it affects the person and what can be done about it.

Yes exactly.

The brain sex assertion has been used by transactivists for bloody years. Pink brain, blue brain.

How do I know how any other person cognitively recognises their sex? How do I know what cognition anyone has of their sex because that’s inside their head? It has no physical bodily manifestation without surgery?

Well.... you could try asking them?

I'm not sure I would class Magnus Hirschfeld's theories as scientific research. At one time in my life I did a deep dive into Wilhelm Reich's theories, and let's put it this way, I'm more sceptical of Hirschfeld than of Reich.

Apart from anything else, Hirschfeld's concept of psychic hermaphroditism wouldn't fit very well with current year Queer Theory. Hirschfeld is a useful martyr as long as you don't delve into his ideas.

So, to return to Dalrymple's example of the two patients on his ward who both believed they were Haile Selassie... they clearly can't both be right, so do we have a metric for determining which one is right? Or maybe neither? And, if one of them is right, who gets to notify the government of Ethiopia?

And, more importantly, why should all this theorising trump the need of female people for single sex spaces? How is the average woman using a changing room supposed to know the difference between a man who sincerely believes he was meant to be a woman, and a man who's just a fetishist taking advantage of a loophole?

You think that a gender dysphoria diagnosis is necessary for medical transition, and not all trans people have gender dysphoria.

Does this mean that you think that trans people who are lucky enough not to suffer dysphoria need to avoid medical transition, or do you support them getting coached in what to say, then lying to psychologists in order to access medical transition?

No I don't believe in anything so simplistic, reductive and false.

I was answering your questions as I thought they were genuine. Are they? Because it's starting to feel like you just want to catch me out rather than you genuinely have questions?

I could look at myself in the mirror and convince myself that I'm Kelly Brook, but I wouldn't expect modelling agencies to offer me contracts on the basis of my philosophical belief.

So I have to ask? And I’m not to doubt their answer ? Because there’s no way a man with nefarious purposes would lie?

And as a 5ft 9 stone woman I’m supposed to ask a male bodied 6ft 13 stone bloke and not feel afraid?

Catch me out = answer awkward questions

A quick google and I think you are wrong - doctors are perfectly at liberty to bring up abortion or sterilisation at appropriate times.

Just noting for completeness, that in the ICD 11, gender dysphoria is classed as a disorder related to sex, and paraphilia must be excluded before a diagnosis is made. So those who have a fetish for crossdressing are excluded from those diagnosed with dysphoria. However, Stonewall etc all include crossdressers in their definition of 'trans'.

Well that’s transmodelphobic of them then by this argument.

Bloody hell, Tandora . You do realise that this bollocks was taught to children in schools, don't you!

You've spent days of your life, and hundreds of thousands of words and it's still incoherent, inconsistent, unscientific jibber jabber.

Sex is about reproductive potential. That's what it is.

It's about bodies.

If a man is convinced he's a woman, he's wrong.

Ok well yes you are right - they would if it were required for a physical reason (e.g. risk of death to mother), but it would not be ethical/ done to recommend these interventions for a social or psychological reason (including perceived risk of suicide).