TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

Sorry, are you saying a gender identity is a recognition of you unchangeable biological sex? That seems to be what you're saying

If we're referring to gender identity and not biological sex...

...well, I think of that ludicrous old Laurie Penny blog post where she said "I'm a girl, but sometimes I'm also a boy" and her male side mostly consisted of liking sci-fi novels.

So how do I know whether I'm female? Do I look at my big pile of books and count up Isaac Asimov vs Jilly Cooper to determine whether I meet a female identity quota?

Is this very sensible? Should this determine which toilets I use?

(I do like Asimov when I'm in the right mood, but Jilly Cooper is much more fun.)

Well quite. I did the laundry today and am cooking dinner. I'm also going to watch the football and have no make up on. Which loo do I use?

Edited to say pebble in the sky is my favourite Asimov.

Other than the preference of the individual, is there any way we can know which gender dysphoric people and which trans people without dysphoria should be given psychological support and which should be given medical transition?

Interventions for gender dysphoria should never be given without request by/ consent of the patient, whether psychological or physical.

Unfortunately in the UK trans people undergo a lot of coercive psychological interventions which are unethical and harmful.

In terms of physical interventions, there are very strict assessment procedures and eligibility criteria in the form of NHS guidance. It's absolutely not the case that any patient who has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and wishes to pursues medical interventions will be supported to do so. There are a lot of hoops to jump through as well as contraindicators for prescribing hormonal treatments and referral for surgical interventions.

You know you are female right? That's your gender identity.

No, it isn't. I don't identify as female, I simply AM female by virtue of being born in a biologically female body. It's a fact of life, not a feeling or a belief. And I am a woman by virtue of having survived in that female body until I reached adulthood. I refuse to be co-opted into your ideological world view.

It falls apart, doesn't it? Your gender identity is female, because you know your sex is female.

And your gender identity would be male if you knew your sex was male, even though your sex is female.

this is what tandora believes.

Yes. The cognitive recognition of self as a given (biological) sex. That is your gender identity.

I made the dinner but I never wear skirts and I’m currently in hiking boots and walking trousers.
I’m shit at cleaning and tidying and couldn’t care less about either.
I like a pint and watching rugby.

Am I a bloke?

I’m sorry. I’m really confused by this. Is biological sex not ovaries and testes, sperm v egg?

I simply AM female by virtue of being born in a biologically female body

I understand. But your statement you just made - "I am female" - this is a cognition. It's something you know about yourself. This is what psychologists mean by "gender identity".

You are exactly right, it's not a feeling or a belief. That's exactly what I am trying to explain! Gender identity is not a feeling or belief, it's a self-directed cognition.

Buck Angel is a trans man who recognises that their sex is female. Does this mean Bucks gender identity is female?

Yes but women know it because it's obvious they have a vagina. How do men know it when they don't have a vagina?

But if you don't have that biological sex, how can you have that gender identity? Your sentence doesn't make sense to me.

My understanding is that a person considers whether they are drawn to the stereotypical associations of one sex or the other, and work backwards from that. Combined with body dysmorphia.

Bluntly its whether one WANTS to be the opposite sex. Which can manifest as delusion, as sometimes happens when we want something very, very much because of unhappiness with ourselves and our life. We can convince ourselves of extraordinary things.

I can imagine its sticky, complex, difficult and persistent - mental health issues often are like that.

What is curious is that other similar conditions involving body dysphoria are not treated with 'affirmation'. Anorexics and those with BIID are not affirmed. CBT doesn't affirm distorted beliefs. Delusions are sometimes affirmed with dementia, I suppose, but the context is wholly different.

Noooo female is a sex not a gender identity.

Right. This is what people are struggling with and I understand . But this is what it is to be a trans person. It is to have been born with observable physical characteristics of one sex, but to have the cognition of self as being the opposite sex.

I'm beginning to see why Upton could pronounce that bollocks, quite aside from the fact he has them, if this is the stuff he's been reading
.

Based on...?

That is not what you said.

It's not the stuff DU has been reading, it's the stuff that DU has been experiencing/ living , because that is DU's cognitive/ biological reality.

This is exactly what I have said and always said. Perhaps you haven't understood.

But they must know they aren’t the opposite sex, otherwise what are they transing from and to?

What's a cognition?

So if a psychologist thinks a gender dysphoric person is at risk of suicide due to dysphoria, and that medical transition is the best cure, he should never offer medical transition, he should wait for the gender dysphoric person to ask?

You seem to have conflated gender dysphoria and trans by the way, and ignored what I asked about medical transition for trans people who are not dysphoric.

You think that a gender dysphoria diagnosis is necessary for medical transition, and not all trans people have gender dysphoria.

Does this mean that you think that trans people who are lucky enough not to suffer dysphoria need to avoid medical transition, or do you support them getting coached in what to say, then lying to psychologists in order to access medical transition?

Over 100 years of scientific research across multiple scientific disciplines.