TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

Please show me the scientific proof that gender identities exist?

And could you address the rest of my post too, please? Don't think we haven't noticed the old "answer one tiny bit of a post whilst ignoring the substance" tactic.

(1) The medical condition is gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoria can be diagnosed, and transition (including but not exclusively medical transition) can help alleviate gender dysphoria. Is that right?

This is correct.

(2) Trans is not a medical or mental health condition, and one does not need to have gender dysphoria in order to be trans.

There is therefore absolutely no need for any medical or mental health intervention for a trans person unless they are also dysphoric and have been medically diagnosed as such, which many trans people are not.

Well this is one of the problems with current medical practices. I'm not sure I quite have the stomach to go into this here though, as I think it will be too much for people, and is only going to invite a load of anger directed at my person if I do.

(3) Putting (1) and (2), together it is perfectly possible for a person to suffer from gender dysphoria and benefit from medical transition, whilst not actually being trans.

The way that the clinical criteria is set out, gender dysphoria is the distress that results from being trans, so while a person may be trans without being gender dysphoric, the diagnosis doesn't contemplate a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria in a person who isn't trans.
I do think people can have symptoms/ experiences of gender dysphoria without being trans, but these wouldn't meet the threshold for clinical diagnosis.

Personally I disagree with that as well. Even if the group of people Tandora wants to call "women" is a meaningful grouping there is far too much cultural history of female people attached to the word "Woman" to change it. The new group needs a new and separate name.

My post was illustrating that even if you do accept the assertion that "women" may not be female, it is still a logical fallacy to conclude means women-only spaces should be opened up to trans women and not that women-only spaces should be clarified to be female-only spaces.

I don't think that is difficult to understand.

I agree that certain male bodied people feel distress about their male bodies. (Also female bodied people, but you seem to be less interested in them.) I am not sure how you distinguish between male bodied people who are sincerely distressed by their male bodies, and those who are just trying to exploit a loophole, but let's go with it.

My friend feels that the simple and elegant solution to this is to allow any male bodied people who say they feel distress about their male bodies to self-ID into spaces that are designated for the female sex.

Do you see why this may be a problem for many members of the female sex?

Do you think the way around this is to (in the Leninist jargon) patiently explain to female people why they are wrong to object to male bodied people in female single sex spaces? To reframe their trauma, in other words, though trauma might not be necessary?

Do you think a reasonable approach is that of the Youth Hostel Association, that bedrooms are single gender by default (i.e. any male person may identify into a female bedroom) but if a female guest discloses her trauma history, staff might (or might not) arrange alternative accommodation?

Do you in short feel that spaces and services designated female are by default, and even by preference, open to any male who wishes to use them?

Or do you think some kind of gatekeeping is necessary? Because I promise you, you will be monstered by the trans community if you say so.

I didn't understand it. Beliefs, opinions, souls, personalities, Mr Moon, have nothing to do with gender identity development.

Tandora, my DP would like to believe Stockport County are a good football team. He really really would. He's been clinging to wanting this to be true since he was a small boy. But every time they are on the television, he is confronted with evidence that they, to put it kindly, are not. Statistical evidence, visual evidence, all of it. He does persist in this delusion for about two weeks at a time. If he could identify them into the champions league, he would.

But he doesn't foist it on anyone else, demand they believe too, or put them at risk.

It's still as delusional as believing that men can feel that they are women. Just somewhat more endearing and less dangerous, both physically and legislatively.

But that's just a belief, Tandora, not an observable, scientific fact. I don't consider myself to have a gender identity because I refuse to be constrained by the social construct we call gender with its restrictive and damaging stereotypes of behaviour and presentation. My hair is shorter than my husband's and has been for most of our long marriage. I possess not a single dress, skirt or pair of high-heeled shoes and haven't bought make-up for many years. I dress for comfort and ease of movement, yet I am indubitably and recognisably female, not least because I have carried and given birth to two children. I have nothing whatsoever in common with any man who claims to identify as a woman and do not accept his right to share my single-sex spaces, services and sports.

Also female bodied people, but you seem to be less interested in them

Not at all - I'm equally interested in trans people assigned female at birth. However, they don't generate the same kind of controversy on mumsnet - people just ignore them.

It's not a belief, no.
It's an accurate description of transness which derives from the best available evidence across multiple scientific disciplines.

I don't consider myself to have a gender identity because I refuse to be constrained by the social construct we call gender with its restrictive and damaging stereotypes of behaviour and presentation. My hair is shorter than my husband's and has been for most of our long marriage. I possess not a single dress, skirt or pair of high-heeled shoes and haven't bought make-up for many years. I dress for comfort and ease of movement, yet I am indubitably and recognisably female, not least because I have carried and given birth to two children. I have nothing whatsoever in common with any man who claims to identify as a woman and do not accept his right to share my single-sex spaces, services and sports.

You are conflating gender identity, and gender stereotypes concerning presentation and interests.

Now that's just not true. We've had at least two threads started by transmen, which were full of interesting perspectives from them and respectful conversation.

Don't think I haven't noticed you selectively quoting while you ignore my main point.

Telling another person how they feel? That does sound like you. :)

I only saw one thread started by a transman, which was over the weekend. It was really interesting and informative, however, it was promptly deleted by mumsnet. I think it only got to page 2.

I was asking some questions - one was how they had been affected by the SC judgement. They said not really yet, as they continue to use men's facilities and no one has bothered them.

@Tandora Well this is one of the problems with current medical practices. I'm not sure I quite have the stomach to go into this here though, as I think it will be too much for people, and is only going to invite a load of anger directed at my person if I do.

journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/proposed-dsm-5-revisions-sexual-and-gender-identity-disorder-criteria/2010-08

One important argument in favor of keeping a gender identity disorder in the DSM is the concern that its removal would lead to denial of medical care for transgender individuals, hamper their ability to pursue discrimination claims, and deprive people, including children, with GID of the counseling and medical treatments demonstrated to be beneficial, which will likely continue to require a psychiatric assessment for justification [19].

The problem that Tandora is worried about is that the grift would stop

These were a few months ago, I didnt see the one you are referring to.
.

And you call yourself a scientist and academic. 🙄If you genuinely don't understand the rest of that perfectly clearly-expressed and reasonable post, I think you should stop calling yourself either of those things. You don't have to agree with the post, but you can't in all honesty say you don't understand it.

It wasn't meant as a jibe, so much as a statement of fact

What facts do you know about me exactly?

I didn't see them I'm afraid.

Now we're getting somewhere. At last.

"Well this is one of the problems with current medical practices. I'm not sure I quite have the stomach to go into this here though, as I think it will be too much for people, and is only going to invite a load of anger directed at my person if I do."

If you have something to say, then please say it. If you don't want to say it then why waste time alluding to it?

"gender dysphoria is the distress that results from being trans, so while a person may be trans without being gender dysphoric, the diagnosis doesn't contemplate a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria in a person who isn't trans."

So if someone is diagnosed as gender dysphoric they must be trans, and the cure for gender dysphoria is transition?

"I do think people can have symptoms/ experiences of gender dysphoria without being trans, but these wouldn't meet the threshold for clinical diagnosis."

So you are saying that some people can be mildly gender dysphoric without being clinically gender dysphoric, and that these people would not be diagnosed? Can you not see the risk that some doctors might make a mistake and tell someone that they are clinically gender dysphoric and the treatment is transition, when in fact they are not and instead are only mildly gender dysphoric? You do realize doctors are not perfect don't you? They make mistakes.

So. Jackie says she's trans. This is not a medical condition nor diagnosable. She goes for a gender dysphoria diagnosis to see if she is gender dysphoric. If they tell her she is then the cure is transition. If she is not dysphoric, and does not have the medical condition of "being trans" (because being trans is not a medical condition), she may still choose to transition, which is a cure for dysphoria which she does not have?

Or do you think transition is inappropriate for trans people who are not dysphoric? What does it mean to be a non-dysphoric trans person?

I'm struggling to remember the OPs names, and they'll be many pages back now but I will try to look for them later on. They were actually mutually respectful spaces.

I saw it - it was an AMA but posted in AIBU.

You’re very welcome. It’s a pleasure learning from you :-)

If you have something to say, then please say it. If you don't want to say it then why waste time alluding to it?

I alluded to it because I couldn't agree with your statement, but I didn't want to ignore it.

So if someone is diagnosed as gender dysphoric they must be trans, and the cure for gender dysphoria is transition?

The clinical criteria for gender dysphoria doesn't contemplate diagnosis in a person who is not trans. In terms of "cure" - no it doesn't follow that just because a person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria they must/ will transition. However, many individuals may chose to have medical interventions to alleviate dysphoria, which they may be supported with if they have undergone appropriate medical assessment, informed consent procedures and met eligibility criteria.

Can you not see the risk that some doctors might make a mistake and tell someone that they are clinically gender dysphoric and the treatment is transition, when in fact they are not and instead are only mildly gender dysphoric? You do realize doctors are not perfect don't you? They make mistakes.

Of course it's possible for mistakes to be made and there are risks. This goes with all areas of medicine - (access to abortion, sterilisation might be comparable examples) However there is no doctor that would ever tell a patient that the "treatment for gender dysphoria is transition". Medical interventions may be an option if the patient strongly wishes to pursue them and after thorough medical assessment as above.

thanks I'd be really interested to see