Page 25 | TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

BlueEyedBogWitch · 2025-10-06T07:24:49+00:00

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason. Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time. After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

SinnerBoy · 09/10/2025 15:21

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/10/2025 12:36

Can we establish what isn’t transphobic? Might save us a lot of time.

Nothing. There is nothing which is not transphobic.

😒

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:26

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/10/2025 15:15

e.g. chromosomes do not align with hormones etc.

What on earth does that mean? It reads like gibberish to me but perhaps you could explain it?

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Sorry, I was trying to be brief. What I was referring to was, for example, cases where an individual may have xx chromosomes, however, their adrenal glands produce excess androgens (male hormones). In other cases individuals may have XY chromosomes, but due to a genetic mutation their body is insensitive to the production of androgens.

JamieCannister · 09/10/2025 15:27

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:08

Almost yes.

So you're saying that some people are "trans" and these people get distressed because they are trans, and that distress is called gender dysphoria

This is correct.

way we can diagnose whether someone is trans is by observing the distress that results?

We don't diagnose being trans anymore, we only diagnose "gender dysphoria". This we diagnose by observing the distress.

Whether someone is trans - we can know that by asking them about their experience. They may or may not have gender dysphoria.

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With measles the state of being (used deliberately to avoid using illness) is "having measles" and the symptom is the spots, and we use the symptoms to diagnose the state of being.

But with trans the state of being is "trans" and one sympton in some trans people is the gender dysphoria, and we use symptoms to confirm the symptoms?

Whether someone is or is not in the state of being trans is not always related to dysphoria and has no diagnostic criteria?

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:27

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:17

I have a friend who's a relatively (midway, let's say) prominent TRA, and I've been trying for years, without much success, to coax out of him what he actually believes.

What I think his position is: everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD. That hasn't been proven, but let's allow it for the sake of argument.

Following on from that: he believes that this can all be reasonably negotiated by women (the old fashioned definition) budging up and allowing the new exciting women (the ones with cocks and beards) access to women's single sex spaces. At this point he sometimes goes off on a tangent about how Julie Bindel, Alice Sullivan and Alison Bailey (!) are going to patrol toilets policing women for gender conformity.

I don't find this very persuasive. Amongst other things, like a lot of intelligent lefty men, he obviously hasn't given any thought to the question of why women might want single sex spaces.

So this man, who very sincerely identifies as a feminist ally, is in the position where he argues that male-bodied people with trans identities should be able to enter female single sex spaces on their own say so, while female people who might have a problem with that - because of trauma from SA, because of their religious/cultural background, or simply because they don't want penis people in their changing rooms - need to go away and reflect on why they hold these bigoted beliefs and to come back with a resolution to be better and accept male people in female spaces.

Full disclosure: I don't believe that he actually believes all of this. He's got friends who have trans identities and other friends who have transed their kids - and some are mutuals - and has retrofitted an ideological position to fit his social circle.

Is this any different from Tandora's view that a male person's philosophical belief that they were meant to be female trumps a female person's trauma response telling them to get the hell away from a supposedly female space that includes male bodied people?

everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD.

Exactly this.

MurkyWeather2 · 09/10/2025 15:29

@SionnachRuadh Is this any different from Tandora's view that a male person's philosophical belief that they were meant to be female trumps a female person's trauma response telling them to get the hell away from a supposedly female space that includes male bodied people?

I think the only difference might be that Tandora is a true believer in the Judith Butler plan to overcome the patriarchy by hiding people's sex. So retraumatising women is simply the price that has to be paid. This is the sort of nightmare scenario that we humans are so good at creating when we put ideologies above common sense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2025 15:30

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:17

I have a friend who's a relatively (midway, let's say) prominent TRA, and I've been trying for years, without much success, to coax out of him what he actually believes.

What I think his position is: everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD. That hasn't been proven, but let's allow it for the sake of argument.

Following on from that: he believes that this can all be reasonably negotiated by women (the old fashioned definition) budging up and allowing the new exciting women (the ones with cocks and beards) access to women's single sex spaces. At this point he sometimes goes off on a tangent about how Julie Bindel, Alice Sullivan and Alison Bailey (!) are going to patrol toilets policing women for gender conformity.

I don't find this very persuasive. Amongst other things, like a lot of intelligent lefty men, he obviously hasn't given any thought to the question of why women might want single sex spaces.

So this man, who very sincerely identifies as a feminist ally, is in the position where he argues that male-bodied people with trans identities should be able to enter female single sex spaces on their own say so, while female people who might have a problem with that - because of trauma from SA, because of their religious/cultural background, or simply because they don't want penis people in their changing rooms - need to go away and reflect on why they hold these bigoted beliefs and to come back with a resolution to be better and accept male people in female spaces.

Full disclosure: I don't believe that he actually believes all of this. He's got friends who have trans identities and other friends who have transed their kids - and some are mutuals - and has retrofitted an ideological position to fit his social circle.

Is this any different from Tandora's view that a male person's philosophical belief that they were meant to be female trumps a female person's trauma response telling them to get the hell away from a supposedly female space that includes male bodied people?

Does he know you have any issues with this?

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:31

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:27

everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD.

Exactly this.

Show quote history

I'm sorry, but you don't get to just endorse my paraphrase of what I think a friend believes, while ignoring everything else I've said.

Do you still stand by your position that your philosophical belief in innate gender identity trumps the needs of women who have very legitimate reasons for wanted single sex spaces that are actually single sex?

MurkyWeather2 · 09/10/2025 15:31

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:27

everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD.

Exactly this.

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For which there is absolutely no evidence as was determined on the other thread.

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:32

JamieCannister · 09/10/2025 15:27

With measles the state of being (used deliberately to avoid using illness) is "having measles" and the symptom is the spots, and we use the symptoms to diagnose the state of being.

But with trans the state of being is "trans" and one sympton in some trans people is the gender dysphoria, and we use symptoms to confirm the symptoms?

Whether someone is or is not in the state of being trans is not always related to dysphoria and has no diagnostic criteria?

Show quote history

Whether someone is or is not in the state of being trans is not always related to dysphoria and has no diagnostic criteria?

There is no medical diagnosis in the DSM for "being trans". There used to be - it was known as "gender identity disorder".

GID was removed in the latest issue DSM-V for the same reason that homosexuality was removed from the DSM - advances in psychology/ science have shown that being trans is a normal variation of human development, and not itself a pathology or illness.

GID was replaced with "gender dysphoria" which is the clinically significant distress that may occur as a result of being trans.

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:37

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:31

I'm sorry, but you don't get to just endorse my paraphrase of what I think a friend believes, while ignoring everything else I've said.

Do you still stand by your position that your philosophical belief in innate gender identity trumps the needs of women who have very legitimate reasons for wanted single sex spaces that are actually single sex?

Show quote history

If this is what he believes it is exactly correct.

I'm afraid I really didn't understand the rest of your post, so I can't comment on it.

JamieCannister · 09/10/2025 15:38

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:27

everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD.

Exactly this.

Show quote history

What else, other than a gender identity, does everyone have that is absolutely 100% unseeable to science?

Religious people might say a soul.

Most people would agree that everyone has beliefs / opinions (whilst noting that whilst we can know that Mr Moon has beliefs we cannot be certain what they are, only what he says they are).

Most people would agree that everyone has a personality.

Interesting that of the three things I can think of that are unobserable, like a gender identity, are a soul and a personality... perhaps this is why a "gender identity" belief look very much like a gendered soul belief, and perhaps this is why sex realists look at the sex based stereotypes that trans people cling to and think "that looks like a personality to me, not a gender identity".

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:38

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:37

If this is what he believes it is exactly correct.

I'm afraid I really didn't understand the rest of your post, so I can't comment on it.

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I don't think my language was especially obscure. Would you care to explain what you don't understand?

Perhaps you don't understand why women who have experience male sexual violence might prioritise single sex spaces?

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:39

JamieCannister · 09/10/2025 15:38

What else, other than a gender identity, does everyone have that is absolutely 100% unseeable to science?

Religious people might say a soul.

Most people would agree that everyone has beliefs / opinions (whilst noting that whilst we can know that Mr Moon has beliefs we cannot be certain what they are, only what he says they are).

Most people would agree that everyone has a personality.

Interesting that of the three things I can think of that are unobserable, like a gender identity, are a soul and a personality... perhaps this is why a "gender identity" belief look very much like a gendered soul belief, and perhaps this is why sex realists look at the sex based stereotypes that trans people cling to and think "that looks like a personality to me, not a gender identity".

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It's not "unseeable to science" at all.
To the contrary, gender identity development in non-trans children been studied in cognitive psychology since the 1960s , and considered a normal part of childhood development, and incorporated into the ASQ measures.

murasaki · 09/10/2025 15:40

FlirtsWithRhinos · 09/10/2025 15:20

The issue with all this sophistry is that when it comes to female-only spaces, langauges, rights and provisions it is being applied back to front

The TRA logic is:

Women's spaces exist
We used to think women had to be female people.
Now we know there are lots of different ways to be a woman.
Therefore, women's spaces must have been intended for all these people as well.

But this is a logical error because how can women's spaces have been created with reference to people who were not even seen as women when they were created?

A fairer position is

Women's spaces were set up for female people, based on the needs of female people
We called them women's spaces because we wrongly thought female people were the same as women.
Now we know there are lots of different ways to be a woman.
Therefore, women's spaces should be renamed as female spaces because that better fits the people they are actually intended for

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I disagree with point 2 in your statement as female people are women, no others are, agree with 3 but only in as far as all female people are different but still women, not that penis havers or hadders are now women too.

So if point 4 is what we need to do then yes.

But Tandora doesn't want that.

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:41

SionnachRuadh · 09/10/2025 15:38

I don't think my language was especially obscure. Would you care to explain what you don't understand?

Perhaps you don't understand why women who have experience male sexual violence might prioritise single sex spaces?

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I didn't understand what this meant:

he believes that this can all be reasonably negotiated by women (the old fashioned definition) budging up and allowing the new exciting women (the ones with cocks and beards) access to women's single sex spaces. At this point he sometimes goes off on a tangent about how Julie Bindel, Alice Sullivan and Alison Bailey (!) are going to patrol toilets policing women for gender conformity.

Namelessnelly · 09/10/2025 15:44

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:27

everyone has a gender identity, which most of us don't notice because it's congruent with our biological sex, but it can be really distressing for people when it isn't congruent. So it's a kind of neurological DSD.

Exactly this.

Show quote history

Still means there two sexes, no one can change sex and males are not allowed in female spaces no matter how sad this makes them.

Datun · 09/10/2025 15:45

Tandora · 09/10/2025 14:34

I have a friend who became a lesbian after she was raped. This happens, but it's not the overwhelming/ likely pathway into being gay. For the most part being gay is a fundamental characteristic of a person, not a result of trauma. As it is with being trans.

Tavistock were a woeful service. The "gay" narrative is the 2025 equivalent/ reverse of popular 19th century theories that we could cure homosexuality by reinforcing normative gender roles (i.e. teach gay boys to be more masculine). Now it's "we can cure trans people" by getting them to accept that they are gay! Never mind that trans people come in all sexualities of course.

Edited

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Again, according to the experts, (because you aren't one), it was predominantly gay youngsters.

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:46

Namelessnelly · 09/10/2025 15:44

Still means there two sexes, no one can change sex and males are not allowed in female spaces no matter how sad this makes them.

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Thank you for your fresh, original and thoughtful contribution :)

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:47

Datun · 09/10/2025 15:45

Again, according to the experts, (because you aren't one), it was predominantly gay youngsters.

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because you aren't one

What do you see as the place for these types of personally-directed jibes in a productive, respectful exchange?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/10/2025 15:47

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:46

Thank you for your fresh, original and thoughtful contribution :)

Edited

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The irony.

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:48

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:06

I'm trying to answer you as directly and clearly as I can.

I don't think "gender" is separate to "sex".

Rather, "sex", has several layers/ components (with variations across each layer).

One of these layers is what stonewall call "gender" - which is the neurodevelopmental/ psychological aspect of sex.

For the most part the different aspects of sex (chromosomes, hormones, gonads, genitals, psychology) all align as they are all part of the same developmental process which is driven by sex-hormone signalling genes that operate systemically across the body and brain.

However, there are variations in development that can occur where different aspects of sex do not align. e.g. chromosomes do not align with hormones etc. Psychological sex does not align with genitals etc.

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@potpourree hope I have been able to answer your question

MurkyWeather2 · 09/10/2025 15:48

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/proposed-dsm-5-revisions-sexual-and-gender-identity-disorder-criteria/2010-08

There is less controversy about keeping the paraphilias in the DSM because, unlike GID, they can manifest with behaviors that harm the self or others—one major area in which the domain of the psychological overlaps the arena of the legal.

So GID, unlike paraphilias, does not manifest with behaviours that harm the self or others. Meaning the male others obvs. No-one cares about the female others.

Proposed DSM-5 Revisions to Sexual and Gender Identity Disorder Criteria

The revisions balance a growing understanding of gender identity disorders and societal views with the need to retain conditions that benefit from intervention and the removal of which would hamper patients’ ability to receive medical treatment.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/proposed-dsm-5-revisions-sexual-and-gender-identity-disorder-criteria/2010-08

JamieCannister · 09/10/2025 15:49

Tandora · 09/10/2025 15:32

Whether someone is or is not in the state of being trans is not always related to dysphoria and has no diagnostic criteria?

There is no medical diagnosis in the DSM for "being trans". There used to be - it was known as "gender identity disorder".

GID was removed in the latest issue DSM-V for the same reason that homosexuality was removed from the DSM - advances in psychology/ science have shown that being trans is a normal variation of human development, and not itself a pathology or illness.

GID was replaced with "gender dysphoria" which is the clinically significant distress that may occur as a result of being trans.

Edited

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I think I'm starting to understand.

(1) The medical condition is gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoria can be diagnosed, and transition (including but not exclusively medical transition) can help alleviate gender dysphoria. Is that right?

(2) Trans is not a medical or mental health condition, and one does not need to have gender dysphoria in order to be trans. There is therefore absolutely no need for any medical or mental health intervension for a trans person unless they are also dysphoric and have been medically diagnosed as such, which many trans people are not.

(3) Putting (1) and (2), together it is perfectly possible for a person to suffer from gender dysphoria and benefit from medical transition, whilst not actually being trans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2025 15:50

There’s absolutely no point renaming women’s spaces as “female spaces” or whatever. It’s missing the point.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 09/10/2025 15:50

Tandora · 09/10/2025 14:54

I believe that it is possible to reasonably balance everyone's needs. I don't agree that banning trans women from using any public facilities in accordance with their gender is that balance.

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Can you suggest some public facilities where it is justified to separate men and women, but not justified to separate by sex?

It is a genuine question BTW.

I see women-only spaces as a necessary evil, something we should not need to have but currently do due to specific risks and challanges that women face. So to me there is a direct link between women's sex based needs and women-only resources. The idea of a woman-only provision that is not based on a sex-specific need makes no sense to me - why would we have it?

(To be clear, all my questions are genuine, but sometimes I'm asking a question to challange a gap in your logic, and sometimes I'm asking because I genuinely have no idea how you will go and I am interested in your thinking. This is the second type.)