TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

Yes I'd be really really grateful if you and the above pp stop @-ing me

Tandora, you keep saying "in their gender" about agender people but agender people don't have a gender identity.

Are you doing this by mistake or because you don't think there are trans people without gender identities?

There are many detransitioners who will explain otherwise. One girl became unutterably dysphoric, because her father kept raping her.

She subsequently identified as a boy in order to avoid his abuse.

The Tavistock claims that many of the children arriving at their clinic who identified as trans were doing so because they were gay. They wanted to be the opposite sex because of homophobia. The dysphoria came first.

edited to suggest that perhaps you should speak to some real life trans people

That's it. Not a creation story. Descriptions of empirical truths.
I don't have anything else for you.

@Tandora Social and medical transition supports the person to align their social identity and their physical body with their cognitive experience.

Except it doesn't work. Everyone still knows who the men are and who the women are. So maybe reframing trauma actually would be a better long term solution for these people

Yes, definitely. It’s a good way to navigate social media in general where there are so many attention seekers and people who get narcissistic supply from starting pointless arguments online. Mumsnet is no exception to this, across the site.

I have been sexually assaulted. I don't mention it often, but it's relevant here.

Many women I know have been sexually assaulted. That's why I firmly believe we need female single sex spaces which are actually single sex.

Some men I know have been sexually assaulted. I wish I had an easy solution for them, but I don't believe the solution is to make women budge up and give them a space in the female category.

You obviously feel your philosophical belief trumps other people's trauma response. I am sorry you don't feel this is relevant to your highfalutin philosophy.

Perhaps you'd like to consider whether your condescending attitude is productive.

Yes. It’s all meaningless nonsense.

Thank goodness!

Why don't you create a board, somewhere other than on this one (which was set up for people to discuss the damaging impact of trans ideology on female sex based rights and protections). That way you could guarantee an audience that may be more susceptible to your way of thinking - and with far less aggro.

Look up Baron David Ward affidavit. That's a real trip! There is a huge following with FB groups/websites singing his praises. It's all very secretive though and you have to do lots of learning to understand the process yadayada. It involves declaring yourself a baron and getting your own crest. And then sending out 1000 page documents to all the MP's in the UK and they'll all owe you gazillions of ££ Liens.
This Baron David bloke ended up finally getting evicted, living in a van and dying very sick and destitute. Yet his method/affidavit works according to these nutters!! 🙄😂.

I have a friend who became a lesbian after she was raped. This happens, but it's not the overwhelming/ likely pathway into being gay. For the most part being gay is a fundamental characteristic of a person, not a result of trauma. As it is with being trans.

Tavistock were a woeful service. The "gay" narrative is the 2025 equivalent/ reverse of popular 19th century theories that we could cure homosexuality by reinforcing normative gender roles (i.e. teach gay boys to be more masculine). Now it's "we can cure trans people" by getting them to accept that they are gay! Never mind that trans people come in all sexualities of course.

Pt 1 - Do you agree or disagree with the definition that I gave having done some googling? I will repeat it "Gender dysphoria refers to an individual's affective / cognitive discontent with their assigned gender but is more specifically defined when used as a diagnostic category."

Pt 2 - You are saying that the distress, which is known as gender dysphoria, is based on the way they are perceived (and presumably treated as their birth-sex). The gender dysphoria is a result of being trans, not the cause of being trans (you said "Gender dysphoria is the distress that may result as a consequence of being trans" on this thread at 12.23pm today) , so presumably you disagree with the definition I just repeated in Pt 1?

Many women I know have been sexually assaulted.

I think it would be rare to find a woman in any country in the world who hasn't been. Some of us just go into denial for years (me)

What happened to the thread that was supposedly being started?

Pt 1 and 2 are entirely compatible/ concordant with each other. I don't understand what you are struggling with.

So by describing gender identities as empirical truths, does that mean you now accept they exist and are separate from physical sex?

You were unsure of this a few months ago and described the concept of gender identities aligning with each sex as unhelpful (which I'd agree with to some extent) and . I don't want to rehash a past discussion to which your conclusion was "it's complex", but I'm curious as to whether you've changed your thinking since then?

Can you not read? There was no @ in that post.

However I’ll respond when you refer to me or to any post that you make on this thread, on which I am also posting, as I see fit.

It is rather akin to Starmer calling half the country racists and thinking this will suddenly cause them all to abandon Farage and become Labour party memnbers.

Or go on reddit... only based on what s/he has posted here s/he would not last long at all before being kicked off for transphobia.

That would be an explanation - trans'woman' or TRA seeks space to pontificate, and having been kicked out of all the pro-trans echo chambers s/he ends up here.

You say being trans can cause gender dysphoria.

The definition I found say gender dysphoria is a diagnosis not a symptom.

And there we have it. Don't try to tell Tandora you need single-sex spaces because of lasting trauma from sexual assault. That's you trying to play trauma trumps by implying that your trauma matters more than the trauma of a man being told No, he can't use women's single-sex spaces, even if he has inner womanly feelings.

@potpourree I'm afraid you haven't understood my posts. My position has not changed.

I don't share your understandings of 'gender' and 'sex' or the relationship between the two. I'd rather move away from this language entirely. But to the extent we have to work within it.

Biologically/ developmentally - "sex" is a multi-dimensional construct. There are chromosomes, hormones, gonadal structures etc. There is also a neurodevelopmental/ psychological component to sex, which is what people call "gender".

Socially/ culturally - "sex" is a binary construct. We register sex at birth, either male or female, and we have a sex of social rearing - raised as boys or girls.

A trans person is someone for whom the psychological/ neurodevelopmental component of sex does not align with physical characteristics observed at birth (e.g. having a penis) which then determines registration of sex/ sex of social rearing.

The "sex/ gender, biological/ constructed, body/ mind, real/fictional" theoretical framework which is one of the central components of "gender critical feminism" is false, reductive and unhelpful.

Yes gender dysphoria is a diagnosis. It's the diagnosis that describes the clinically significant distress than can result as a consequence of being trans.

But when you decide whose trauma/distress matters, you are doing exactly that. You are deciding whose needs get to be taken into account and whose are ignored.

Can you not see it?

Your logic is bascially "Firstly, let's ignore everyone with a legitimate reason not to want to include trans women in women's safe or supported spaces. Now look! It is just like we always said! No-one has a legitimate reason not to want to include trans women in women's safe or supported spaces"

I mention this only in passing, but Theodore Dalrymple has a story about the time he had two patients on his ward who both thought they were Haile Selassie. He said either one of them sounded very cogent when explaining why the other guy's claims to the Ethiopian throne were deluded.

Of course at the time, nobody seriously proposed retooling public authorities' policies to conform with a random individual's serious philosophical belief that he was indeed Jah Rastafari, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah.