Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science

363 replies

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2025 18:02

In The War on Science, Dawkins joins several scientists and philosophers contending that academic freedom and truth in universities was being stifled by diversity, equity and inclusion policies that promoted falsehoods under the banner of social justice.

“I draw the line at the belligerent slogan ‘trans women are women’ because it is scientifically false,” he said. “When taken literally, it can infringe the rights of other people, especially women.

“It logically entails the right to enter women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s prisons and so on.

“So powerful has this postmodern counter-factualism become, that newspapers refer to ‘her penis’ as a matter of unremarked routine.”

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/25/richard-dawkins-trans-women-slogan-scientifically-false/ and at https://archive.is/zAFxS

Richard Dawkin's new book warns against denial of scientific truth by ‘astonishingly vicious’ trans activists and other threats on science
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:12

Imnobody4 · 25/09/2025 22:14

From a years old article in 'Vice' a now defunct site.
'Vice News controversy encompasses a range of issues, most notably widespread allegations of a toxic, sexist "boys' club" culture leading to multiple sexual harassment settlements within Vice Media. Further controversies include accusations of biased reporting and censorship related to Saudi Arabian government funding, the use of an offending editor in a Khmer Rouge documentary, and a general struggle to maintain profitability and a sustainable business model, culminating in Vice Media filing for bankruptcy protection in 2023.'
And you've stored it away, a bit creepy. Are you friends with the author?

Tyra Banks Mic Drop GIF by Allure

'Vice News controversy encompasses a range of issues, most notably widespread allegations of a toxic, sexist "boys' club" culture leading to multiple sexual harassment settlements within Vice Media. Further controversies include accusations of biased reporting and censorship related to Saudi Arabian government funding, the use of an offending editor in a Khmer Rouge documentary, and a general struggle to maintain profitability and a sustainable business model, culminating in Vice Media filing for bankruptcy protection in 2023.'

BINGO! HaHA!! Misogynists use misogynist sources.

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:14

Howseitgoin · 25/09/2025 22:20

Dawkins is a world class scientist so he knows only too well no one is suggesting reproductive categories don't exist rather ‘Sex’ is often semantically flattened into a binary model, for which individuals are classified as either ‘female’ or ‘male.’ A more expansive definition of sex is bimodal—with most individuals falling within one of two peaks of a trait distribution. However, even a bimodal model is an oversimplification, since ‘sex’ comprises multiple traits, with variable distributions. Individuals may possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level, morphology, and social roles, which do not always align in female- and male-specific ways or persist across an organism’s lifespan. Reliance on strict binary categories of sex fails to accurately capture the diverse and nuanced nature of sex.

In other words, the guy knows better but is looking for pay back after the left hung him out to dry.

Sex is binary. Male, or female. No Biologist well ever deny this.

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:21

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 00:08

How genes influence behaviour? If you really want me to….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_genetics

😂Wikipedia. F*k me dead. Wikipedia is not any kind of valid 'source' for anything.

SinnerBoy · 26/09/2025 19:26

BreatheAndFocus · Today 18:03

Sex is binary. Anyone who thinks otherwise in 2025 is an idiot - or a liar.

Or a lying idiot.

Or an idiotic liar.

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:30

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 07:22

All caps doesn't qualify as an explanation of why there's a conflation.

Do you even know what caps are? Nothing she wrote is in caps. If you can get something so blatantly obvious wrong....

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:31

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 07:31

Because both these categories are products of biological variation in sex traits.

Trans is an identity in person's head. There is no biological part of it.
Intersex are still either male or female. No biological variation there either.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2025 19:33

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:31

Trans is an identity in person's head. There is no biological part of it.
Intersex are still either male or female. No biological variation there either.

Identity in someone's head

Aka

Complete fantasy

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:38

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 09:42

Thank you Howseitgoin [I like your username, it makes me want to reply 'Grand thanks, and how's yourself?😁] for this from an article you quote

  • Genetic sex
  • Morphological sex, which includes reproductive organs, external genitalia, gametes and secondary morphological sexual characteristics (sometimes these and genetic sex are referred to collectively as biological sex, but this is problematic for reasons I will go over)
  • Sexual orientation (sexual attraction)
  • Gender identity (how one understands and feels about their own gender)
  • Gender expression (how one expresses their gender to the world)
James Lyons-Weiler “Biology is the biology is the biology“:

It is quite a useful 'Naming of Parts' for discussions around sex and gender.
It's not perfect - 'Gender identity' and 'gender expression' are both defined in terms of 'gender', which is not defined, so it's circular and not very helpful.

But overall it is still quite useful, in that 'gender identity' and 'gender expression' are both defined as feelings, not facts, one being an 'understanding' and the other an 'expression'.

This separation between observable, verifiable facts, and some people's feelings about those facts, is crucial. Feelings, though important, are individual and varied, and can sometimes be totally irrational, or limited to small sections of the population.

For instance, a tiny 0.5% of the population of the UK - that's about quarter of a million people out of over 45 million people - reported on the Census form that the gender they identify with is not the same as their sex as registered at birth. That's an expression of a feeling about their biological sex, whereas their sex as registered at birth is based on observable and verifiable facts, and can be determined by more detailed examination if simple observation is unclear.

So we know how this very small number of people feel about their biological sex. That's very interesting to them and those around them, but there's no justification for using their feelings as a basis for profound legislative or social change.

Howse is his last name.

teawamutu · 26/09/2025 19:41

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:14

Sex is binary. Male, or female. No Biologist well ever deny this.

Exactly. When Dawkins was asked at a recent public speaking event if sex is really binary, he laughed before describing it as 'one of the few true binaries we have'. (The audience also laughed. Reassuring.)

But I'm sure he would be willing to bow to the superior reasoning and new evidence offered up by a bunch of pronoun people and fetishists from Tumblr and trans Reddit.

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:43

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 11:10

Yup, Greer doesn't believe trans women are the same as CIS women in terms of "life experience" but not all women's life experiences are the same & some trans women experiences are similar to CIS women so it's not exactly one of her most rigorous analyses. She was getting on at that stage & admitted to a nursing home for dementia not long after.

There is no such thing as 'cis'.

No male's experiences is anything remotely alike females' experiences.

And that clip was made many, many years before she even went into a nursing home.

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 19:54

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:11

Most people would choose to not knowingly bring a child with a disability into the world. It is why amniocentesis and other testing exists.

I object, on behalf of people with disabilities, but also on behalf of 'most people' .

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 19:59

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/09/2025 12:03

Ageism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia - quite the collection of repellent behaviours isn't it?

They're all standard character traits for trans activists.

ThatBlackCat · 26/09/2025 20:03

Howseitgoin · 26/09/2025 12:24

Ive seen the Netflix show & that's false.

It's well known and even admitted by Jenner that he used to try on his daughter's clothes. He has admitted this himself.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2025 08:23

I have to admit to disappointment.

There are a few things that I have waited patiently on MN after being told that there was evidence of - bimodal sex modelling with labels on each axis and a robust study that the affirming only medical treatments improved long term mental health for children.

I keep telling the poster who tells us all that gender affirming care in currrnt form has long term benefits for children that they must submit that evidence to the different countries medical review teams who obviously missed that study. They don’t even link it up for us. They never produce the evidence, despite telling us their highly qualified to make that statement, but they do keep saying that same thing.

And now I shall have to add the Bimodal Sex Model to that list of highly significant information that is being gatekept and not shared so we all can learn from it. Talk about withholding evidence that would turn the world’s understanding on its head!

Kucinghitam · 29/09/2025 09:43

Helleofabore · 29/09/2025 08:23

I have to admit to disappointment.

There are a few things that I have waited patiently on MN after being told that there was evidence of - bimodal sex modelling with labels on each axis and a robust study that the affirming only medical treatments improved long term mental health for children.

I keep telling the poster who tells us all that gender affirming care in currrnt form has long term benefits for children that they must submit that evidence to the different countries medical review teams who obviously missed that study. They don’t even link it up for us. They never produce the evidence, despite telling us their highly qualified to make that statement, but they do keep saying that same thing.

And now I shall have to add the Bimodal Sex Model to that list of highly significant information that is being gatekept and not shared so we all can learn from it. Talk about withholding evidence that would turn the world’s understanding on its head!

Perhaps this behaviour identifies as Brave&Stunning?

CassOle · 29/09/2025 09:51

Kucinghitam · 29/09/2025 09:43

Perhaps this behaviour identifies as Brave&Stunning?

LOL!

Until shown otherwise, I shall imagine the mythical evidence of bimodal sex modelling with labels on each axis, and this elusive, robust study showing that affirmiation-only medical treatments improved long-term mental health for children are a doodle on the back of a napkin and nothing more.

Of course, following Kucinghitam's thoughts, the doodle might identify as evidence.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2025 10:03

Kucinghitam · 29/09/2025 09:43

Perhaps this behaviour identifies as Brave&Stunning?

I think it really becomes clear that the discussion points are full of misinformation and logical inconsistencies when it comes to men being women, or boys being girls, in any way. It is indeed a performative discussion that is to appear stunning and brave.

I mean, of course it is brave to fight the good fight with just more misinformation and falsity. The last pages so far of this thread really has been the culmination of years of work. Or weeks in the case of that poster… Germaine Greer supposedly being posted for saying something supporting the posters argument. Then when it is pointed out that no, she absolutely doesn’t support male people accessing female single sex spaces, apparently she has dementia when making that clear (despite evidence back to the 90s if not further).

Then the final cherry… the appeal to the bimodal sex model. What a twist from a poster who sneered, belittled and abused their way through weeks of declaring how they had the clarity of thought based on rock solid evidence when everyone else was just posting lies and fallacies.

Plus ca change.

I wonder if in 50 years an expert such as Dawkins will still be vilified for stating that there are two sexes and that there is no science to support that a ‘man’ can be ‘a woman’.

lcakethereforeIam · 29/09/2025 10:31

I'm gutted! I had a new dress picked out and my cuticles have never looked so good.

crossant · 29/09/2025 12:21

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 19:54

I object, on behalf of people with disabilities, but also on behalf of 'most people' .

Where the option is available, it seems that a majority of parents choose to terminate a pregnancy after a Down's Syndrome diagnosis. This is as measured by prevalence of Down's Syndrome, and so correctly accounts for women who choose not to have the test.

www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-00748-y.epdf?sharing_token=6gnHEwZLICc08zI2bjFoT9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0Pe45GV59NswcfnRKAj_bH08gu1JSmu0jKt8b1HnDe4isuHc2AtGAb1EFWfK0sQ-7zioz9JL3x7eknxf3djwDC8V8Z4zzw_fOwcgv47AKqE6Z_Sp8Dzzrm-gp414hrGDsM%3D

bonfireoftheverities · 05/10/2025 12:24

I was there last night, front and centre:

Sarah Phillimore was up past my left shoulder, judging by her vantage https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1974511126680592652

IwantToRetire · 05/10/2025 18:19

bonfireoftheverities · 05/10/2025 12:24

I was there last night, front and centre:

Sarah Phillimore was up past my left shoulder, judging by her vantage https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1974511126680592652

Forget about the pictures and women whose names some of us might know, that what was said? Was it worth going?!!

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 05/10/2025 18:28

IwantToRetire · 05/10/2025 18:19

Forget about the pictures and women whose names some of us might know, that what was said? Was it worth going?!!

Sarah Phillimore is doing some tweeting.

Good news, well done Alice.
'Alice Sullivan, a leading gender-critical researcher, has been shortlisted for the 2025 Maddox Prize for her landmark review into how sex is recorded in publicly funded research. @jgro_the reports'
x.com/timeshighered/status/1973102907269480456?t=BEwbI7fe4Y0uVfVxnG12RQ&s=19

YourAmplePlumPoster · 05/10/2025 18:57

They've lost the right to call themselves humanists.

lcakethereforeIam · 05/10/2025 19:09

They should change their name to Manists.