Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

You accused a rape survivor of MAKING IT UP, for fucks sake..

Well, it may well be understandable why you personally might want to use discrete individual facilities...but for the vast majority of women it is the presence of the opposite sex in spaces predicated upon the naked or sexed body and its biological functions that creates most discomfort and increases the risk of sexual predation. This is why we have such facilities and spaces in the first instance.

'Safeguarding 'aims to eliminate as much risk as practical and possible.

I don’t “get naked” I have a poncho.

I have trauma around being in a space behind a locked door where there are people I don’t know on the outside of that door.

For the past year its been a formal thing. As I said I went somewhere in 2022 and was told that unless I really believe they were definitely taking pics or video (in which case they'd call the police who could check), then there isnt much they can do. I see some places have a strict rule, others "prefer" or "suggest".

Then I suggest you check it out beforehand and ask the question. Where I go it’s a rule.

With respect for your trauma - rules and guidelines around single sex facilities are not all about you as an individual...they are about females as an identifiable social grouping.

I said they were making up the things that they claimed I had said. Its like me saying that you said its OK to kill kittens and then writing a strongly worded rebuttal based on when my kitty was murdered. My cat may have been killed but it doesnt mean you said its okay to kill kittens. I'd be making that bit up.

And that's why they should be okay in a single sexed space with individual cubicles, right? As I suggested

I dont go to those places often

I’ve offered to send mnhq my colonoscopy letter and provide them my crime number. I’ve just emailed them.

you did accuse me of making it up. I’m not.

And yet, single sex spaces are reported to be safer than mixed sex spaces (ie. those which are single cubicles but accessible to anyone).

I think that you are saying that since we cannot protect female people 100% with single sex spaces, that we shouldn't bother at all. And this is in light of all the media reports of unisex stalls being unsafe for women and girls.

By all means, you need to find your own personal solution to communal changing spaces. But those who want to use them, shouldn't lose the convenience because a small % of people need cubicles. There should certainly be a private cubicle provided within the communal spaces as well if it is possible.

It is not a reasonable expectation for organisations to remove communal single sex spaces and turn that space into cubicle only. Because by your very own rationale, a person is not safer in that cubicle. That has been your rationale all morning.

So, why are you now saying that we should accept a facility that is offering sub standard safety at all? That is my point. You have argued that nowhere is really safe, so why should we be campaigning to retain single sex spaces at all.

Your clarification has not clarified anything at all. I still don't really understand what your argument is.

The main advantage of having a strictly female-only changing room or toilet is that you can have cubicles and a shared space. With overall good visibility, including door gaps that will mitigate for in-cubicle assaults, bad behaviour, and medical mishaps. And a much reduced chance of anyone coming in who can easily overpower a woman or who is statistically more likely to plant cameras. This thread is nuts.

I'm not sure of your point?

Most single sex facilities do already have separate cubicles for toileting or changing, Though some, such as in gyms or swimming pools, have a communal changing area too.

Now you're just making stuff up. I've been groped by men, there were no women steering their hands.

Phones are slim enough to slip under partitions, you need eyes in the back of your head to see them. Have there been any women convicted for taking stealth pics of other women? They must be vanishingly rare.

If you were to report those men, there would be at least one woman saying that you are lying, wanted it, or are just bitter that he likes her more

And those women would be wrong.

The scary thing is that they likely wouldn't be prosecuted as it would be argued that she was made to by him and didnt know better. We know that women have sent pedophiles pictures of children. Even their own children

I doubt she'd find time, what with all the naked pictures she's nabbing in the communal changing rooms.

have you got stats for that? I’m interested in looking at them. So I can assess the risk.

Your dislike and distrust of women due to your experiences are clouding your judgement and thinking about why we have single sex facilities. We have such facilities because of accepted statistics around sexual offending behaviours and a millennia of experience.

Accurate stats? No because many of the women who have done that would not have bene.investigated or would escape conviction. We know it happens though. One prominent case I can think of was that music artist who was convicted a prolific paedophile. There were mothers sending him pictures of their children. Not sure what happened to those mothers. I think one might have been prosecuted.

I dont dislike women. I distrust people

All I've argued for is single sex spaces with cubicles and it seems like because I dont promote communal nudity for women, it's a problem. Really weird.

OK, so don't go anywhere there are people then.

The rest of us will take calculated risks and try to minimise the most obvious threats to our own safety and wellbeing. Single sex spaces help with that.

So if it’s just supposition that’s really not going to help your case. Sorry.

there certainly are women who behave in the way you have described, however I only remember a few cases, whereas I can find and think of thousands upon thousands of cases where men have behaved similarly.

If you do come across the stats, please do share them.