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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s privacy and dignity

1000 replies

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 07/09/2025 13:43

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2025 10:51

This is about men in women’s spaces, not gay men and boys. If you want to argue about the age of consent for gay teenage boys OP this isn’t the correct board, is it?

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 10:54

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:47

This seems like quite a lazy way of avoiding answering a question you don’t want to answer

How would this answer help you work out why your debate on privacy and dignity being infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex?

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 10:58

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 09:48

Yes.

The world according to @Howseitgoin:

The sexual assault of two pre-teen girls carried out by a trans identifying male person in women's toilets = isolated incidents which are statistically insignificant, and not a reason why trans identifying male people should be excluded from women's toilets.

The complete absence of any recorded instances of trans identifying male people being harmed by men in men's toilets = irrelevant because we do not need any evidence to demonstrate that trans identifying male people are at risk in men's toilets, and we should accept without question that they should be allowed in women's toilets.

The fact that some of them will then go on to harm women and girls in women's toilets is acceptable collateral damage.

Apparently.

Indeed.

And pointing that out is bullying?

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 11:08

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:52

No, I’m not arguing for anything in particular and if you look back at my posts you’ll see that. I was just pointing out that safeguarding can indeed, as the pp pointed out, be ‘weaponised’ as an argument for imposing unfair rules, and we should be able to scrutinise arguments allegedly founded on safeguarding without being accused of raising ‘red flags’

Give this a go:

A girl was raped in what should have been a WSSS but we can ignore that rape as not relevant.
We think some males may be violent to other males.
Therefore we should remove the safeguarding in place around WSS and give men gave access to all WSSS

What is your assessment here?
Is there a red flag which should be noted and/or discussed?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2025 11:17

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 10:58

Indeed.

And pointing that out is bullying?

It’s all projection. More projection than Cineworld.

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/09/2025 11:17

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 11:08

Give this a go:

A girl was raped in what should have been a WSSS but we can ignore that rape as not relevant.
We think some males may be violent to other males.
Therefore we should remove the safeguarding in place around WSS and give men gave access to all WSSS

What is your assessment here?
Is there a red flag which should be noted and/or discussed?

To add to that further:

Because the area in front of the toilet or changing room cubicle is now mixed sex, the design of space the woman is in a state of undress changes. It becomes fully private and sound resistant. She can’t tell who’s outside and no one can tell what’s happening inside.

Also to put into context, the stats are that’s there’s a report of one rape per school day inside U.K. school premises (BBC/police).

Where’s the Equality Impact Assessment for safeguarding here?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 11:18

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 10:03

Did i say I thought that?

Well, yes, I think you did. What other "unfair policy" could you possibly have been referring to?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 11:21

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2025 10:07

Eeerr we have.

Did you miss all the links provided showing the problem with not safeguarding and the risk it poses to women and girls on this thread which we used to try and shut down this conversation.

Or were you reading selectively?

You aren't interested in anything we have to say on the subject. Not really despite your protests of innocence.

It's absolutely batshit to accuse women who spend far too much of their time on here debating this issue, precisely because it has been the only place we are allowed to debate this issue, of not being capable of debating this issue.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 11:24

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 10:00

The issue is that, instead of just explaining why you disagree when someone says they think safeguarding concerns are being used as an excuse for something else, every time several people pile in to accuse the person of nefarious underhand motivations. It appears to be a tactic to shut them down.

Well it's quite difficult to think of a non-nefarious motive for someone believing that women and girls shouldn't be allowed to have any penis-free spaces in which to use the toilet or get changed.

Can you think of a single non-nefarious motive for wanting to force this on unconsenting women and girls rather than finding other ways to protect trans people from whatever threats you believe they face?

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 11:37

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 10:00

The issue is that, instead of just explaining why you disagree when someone says they think safeguarding concerns are being used as an excuse for something else, every time several people pile in to accuse the person of nefarious underhand motivations. It appears to be a tactic to shut them down.

"The issue is that, instead of just explaining why you disagree when someone says they think safeguarding concerns are being used as an excuse for something else, every time several people pile in to accuse the person of nefarious underhand motivations."

When you come back, would you please explain what safeguarding principles you believe are 'unfair' and also what do you believe safeguarding concerns are being used as an 'excuse' for?

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 11:38

I am concerned at the lack of knowledge amongst legal professionals about safeguarding. Look at the NHS Fife court case for instance.

Maybe this is an inherent failure in the qualifications for legal professionals and they need to do a safeguarding course and show they have a depth of understanding safeguarding since they are advising organisations about rights and policies.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 11:52

Either way, we have progressed no further than yesterday.

A set of links that show that a group of people being subject to 'hate crimes' really is not relevant to whether that group should have access to female single sex spaces if they are not female people.

It also doesn't answer the question as to why a particular group of male people with a philosophical belief about their own identity where that identity does not reflect material reality should receive special and additional privileges that no other male group of people get access to.

These privileges are based only on a person's philosophical belief about themselves. What other group's philosophical belief gets additional privileges available to no other group to prioritise their philosophical belief above rights, laws and policies relating to sex when sex matters.

We have seen the following though:

the redefinition of sex / female / woman / girl
the false interpretation of rights
the denial that rights exist
the twisted and false leveraging of 'look how much abuse / violence' this group gets so they must get protection in female single sex spaces as a male'
the denial of what consent is in particular situations
the denial of what harms are being done to female people when gender is prioritised

The list though is longer, this is just some of what we have seen here.

Why have we seen it?

Because a group of male people demand access to female single sex spaces based on their philosophical belief about themselves and female people rejecting that belief is not acceptable to them.

Misogyny.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:17

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 08:47

You’ve summed it up perfectly. It’s sad, because on other areas of MN people are able to have interesting, genuine discussions on all sorts of topics, without the same group of users coming in every time to bully and hector and repeat the same catch phrases over and over

Sad, sad times.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:18

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 08:54

All I have to do have to prove the point is show they are in danger in public. And the police dat confirms it. This isn't rocket science.

What's astonishingly bizarre is this dogged denial of the obvious. It doesn't take a scholar to comprehend they trigger people. I mean look at this thread. You'd think there was a mass trans invasion when the reality is their minuscule population means people rarely come across them & yet you would think they were the number one existential threat. But according to those who fear them the most no one could be bother to lift a finger…

Full blown derangement syndrome is an understatement.

Still no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2025 12:20

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:17

Sad, sad times.

It was the saddest of times!

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:21

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 09:03

Yeah, I been on so many different & sometimes hostile forums & Iv'e never encountered such mob vitriol & denial.

And astounding that it's on a mum's forum. But I suspect many of these commenters don't have children & just have an irrational fear &/or hatred of men they are channeling against trans women under the guise of 'safe guarding'. 'It's the last straw…I suppose.

I was reading in a study that 'safe guarding' has long been weaponised for bigoted purposes.

It’s still no.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:24

ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 09:22

Actively and openly agitating against safeguarding. You don't often see that in the wild.

Now, children, can anyone tell me why would anyone be interested in less safeguarding?

They really are saying the quiet part out loud now aren’t they? It’s because they’re getting desperate.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:26

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:24

What have I said that makes you think I’m “desperate to force/coerce unconsenting women and girls into sharing toilet facilities and changing rooms with men and boys”?

Everything that you’ve said. And it’s still no.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:27

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

It’s still no mate. We don’t really care what you find offensive.

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 12:28

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 10:07

I have now arrived at my office so I will have to leave you all to spend the day arguing, enjoy

So what is the work problem you need to collect data for?

Who is in trouble?
HR or a client?
Which "side" are you polling for?
Gay man or Straight man?

Is it a question of was it sexual harrassment or waa it homophobia?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:33

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 10:06

Motte bailey.

You aren't just arguing for private spaces tho. See: vitriol & denial.

It’s still no.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:36

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 10:07

I have now arrived at my office so I will have to leave you all to spend the day arguing, enjoy

The man has arrived!! Have a lovely day and thank you once again for your sterling contribution to Operation Let Them Speak, it’s been invaluable.

ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 12:37

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1965546131120885773

Here's a thread about Jeffrey Epstein, his pals, and why they tried to shut down Mumsnet.

It's about safeguarding again!

BackToLurk · 10/09/2025 12:40

Regarding hate crime, and using the data provided, some male people will be victims of violent hate crimes because of the colour of the skin, some because of their sexuality, some because they have a disability, some because of their religion, and some because of their gender identity. None should be in female-only SSS. HTH.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 12:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2025 12:20

It was the saddest of times!

The saddest of sad, sad times for sad, sad men.

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