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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

714 replies

Tootingbec · 06/09/2025 21:27

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 11:20

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 11:16

The entire thread is predicated on the particular issue of gay men using surrogacy.

Here's the thing, if you direct your opposition to surrogacy primarily at gay men, even if you are in theory also opposed to it by straight couples, then that of course is homophobic.

Opposing surrogacy in itself is not homophobia. Opposing it for gay couples only, or directing your attention to gay couples only, is what is homophobia.

You don't do anything on MN but deliberately misrepresent entire conversations.

You have a reputation for it.

You are demonstrating it in real time here but deliberately trying to twist the entire premise of the thread.

Nothing further needs to be said in response to your comments.

Good Day.

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:24

For the information of the surrogacy advocates peeping in here: accusations of "homophobia" are particularly absurd in this Feminist forum, given that many of the posters are lesbians and bisexuals.

In the world at large, there are also many gay men who oppose surrogacy and who doubtless chuckle at being called "homophobic" by straight champions of baby trafficking.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 11:26

As predicted. Multiple posts into a response, the substance of which was about impacts on children, and not a single response to that.

But hey, let's talk about all your hurt feelings at me pointing out the homophobia in targeting specifically surrogacy by gay people.

drspouse · 08/09/2025 11:30

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 10:59

Parking the obvious homophobia in a thread targetted just at surrogacy by gay men, a lot of references to adoption here really anger me.

A couple of things to point out:

-Adoption is not a consolation prize for those who cannot have a child biologically. Positing as a 'if you want a child, just adopt' is glib and ignorant.

-More fundamentally, the claims about the inherent trauma of separating a newborn from their gestational mother are fundamentally based on Primal Wound Theory, which is a theory that can be deeply stigmatising to a lot of adopted people and, crucially, is lacking in any real scientific basis. The research about children conceived through surrogacy suggests mental and emotional outcomes comparable to other children.

This is important, because if we ground policy on the primal wound theory, then when weighing the interests of children being considered for being placed in care at birth, we risk adopting a threshold of harm that is not justified by the science. If we start from the position that removal from a birth mother is inherently traumatic in a way that causes lasting harm to a child, then the threshold of harm to justify that removal must logically be higher (than it already is). That may be right if it was scientifically grounded, but it is not.

I am an adoptive parent who doesn't think Primal Wound is a valid theory.
Nevertheless, there are many valid reasons why adoptive children can have poor outcomes and these include not having access to their biological family growing up.
Also, the data on outcomes from same sex families is almost all from lesbian parents where the children have access to their biological dad (mainly women who discovered their same sex attraction after being married to a man).
So don't worry, we aren't all Primal Wound advocates.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:30

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 11:10

No, it's criticising surrogacy. No matter who is involved. Should gay people be exempt from criticism?

The OP's original post is targeted at gay male and also breaks Mumset talk guidelines by engaging in sweeping negative generalisations:

  1. Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

OP:

"When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!
It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes."

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:31

*gay males

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:33

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 11:26

As predicted. Multiple posts into a response, the substance of which was about impacts on children, and not a single response to that.

But hey, let's talk about all your hurt feelings at me pointing out the homophobia in targeting specifically surrogacy by gay people.

You just can't stop making the same obviously and laughably erroneous claim, can you?
😆😆😆

Everyone here has opposed surrogacy for any couples, regardless of sex or sexual orientation. We have merely pointed out that when we oppose surrogacy in relation to gay couples, we will be falsely accused of homophobia - and you have duly demonstrated that this is precisely what happens.

And the more you repeat this cynical exercise, the more you prove our point.

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:38

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:30

The OP's original post is targeted at gay male and also breaks Mumset talk guidelines by engaging in sweeping negative generalisations:

  1. Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

OP:

"When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!
It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes."

There is over-generalisation there, I grant you - it's not true that all gay males support surrogacy for gay couples or any couples. And it's probably fair to say that most gay male couples aren't interested in having children anyway.

But it's also arguably true that those gay males who do support surrogacy are also exploiting and promoting traditional male privilege, in the safety of a "protected" category - knowing that hordes of people like you will falsely accuse critics of surrogacy of "homophobia".

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:40

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:38

There is over-generalisation there, I grant you - it's not true that all gay males support surrogacy for gay couples or any couples. And it's probably fair to say that most gay male couples aren't interested in having children anyway.

But it's also arguably true that those gay males who do support surrogacy are also exploiting and promoting traditional male privilege, in the safety of a "protected" category - knowing that hordes of people like you will falsely accuse critics of surrogacy of "homophobia".

So do you think the sweeping negative generalisations from the OP towards gay men are not homophobia then?

What is your definition of homophobia?

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:44

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:40

So do you think the sweeping negative generalisations from the OP towards gay men are not homophobia then?

What is your definition of homophobia?

They are generalisations, but not homophobic because she's comparing gay men to straight men, and suggesting "they're just the same", not in some way worse.

TheKeatingFive · 08/09/2025 11:47

Can we be mindful that certain posters would love to distract us by accusing us all of homophobia - rather than have us discuss the very real moral problems with Surrogacy.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:50

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:44

They are generalisations, but not homophobic because she's comparing gay men to straight men, and suggesting "they're just the same", not in some way worse.

So if there was a post saying that gay women are as bad as straight women in some respect or other - would you not find that post problematic?

Would you not think that falls foul of the "sweeping negative generalisations about any group" will not be tolerated Mumsnet moderation principles?

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 11:54

TheKeatingFive · 08/09/2025 11:47

Can we be mindful that certain posters would love to distract us by accusing us all of homophobia - rather than have us discuss the very real moral problems with Surrogacy.

I note that despite claiming it's homophobic and against MN guidelines, they don't fucking bother to report to MNHQ.

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 11:56

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 11:08

The homophobia lies in the fact that there isn 't a thread criticising only straight people for their surrogacy.

Many of us are against all surrogacy but there are some pretty dystopian issues when it is used by men, gay or single men, and that's worth discussing.

Men can now have babies with zero contact with a woman. Women are potentially going to be pushed right out, as men no longer going to have to tolerate a woman in their lives to have a family. And gay men are leading the charge.

Already, some rich men are taking the position that marriage is a crazy thing to do, as it puts their money at risk. Co-habitation has risks too. Why not just use surrogates and nannies? This is already a big thing in China.

Not ok.

Anyway, you also can't discount the Primal Wound theory just like that. Doing research into babies removed at birth is extremely difficult, but we know that animals removed at birth struggle to be accepted by their fellow pack/ herd members and we know from stats that adopted people have more mental health struggles and other problems.

It might not be possible to prove Primal Wound but there is no proof against it either.

And there is little info on the effects of surrogacy. The only decent studies are the Cambridge ones, like this one, which confidently states no negatives, but only featured 22 surrogate-born families https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2023-63676-001.html

APA PsycNet

https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2023-63676-001.html

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:57

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 11:54

I note that despite claiming it's homophobic and against MN guidelines, they don't fucking bother to report to MNHQ.

I reported the OP's post on Saturday night for falling foul of their own moderation principles on negative sweeping generalisations about any group. Mumsnet have done nothing.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 08/09/2025 12:04

Throneofgame · 06/09/2025 23:13

In your view, how should gay couples have a child?

They could adopt a child in need of a home - if the wish for a child was about the child... rather than their own wants.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:04

drspouse · 08/09/2025 11:30

I am an adoptive parent who doesn't think Primal Wound is a valid theory.
Nevertheless, there are many valid reasons why adoptive children can have poor outcomes and these include not having access to their biological family growing up.
Also, the data on outcomes from same sex families is almost all from lesbian parents where the children have access to their biological dad (mainly women who discovered their same sex attraction after being married to a man).
So don't worry, we aren't all Primal Wound advocates.

Absolutely - adopted children do on average have more challenges than children who were not adopted. But there is no robust evidence that this is specifically linked to the fact of separation from a birth mother in and of itself.

Of course questions of identity, impacts of in utero stress, violence or substance abuse all impact children placed in care from birth. Add to that that many will have been placed first with foster parents and subsequently adopted, and disentangling the impacts of initial separation from a birth mother from the subsequent separation from foster carers becomes even more tricky.

But I think those arguing against surrogacy from the perspective of the interests of the child are wide of the mark.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:07

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 11:33

You just can't stop making the same obviously and laughably erroneous claim, can you?
😆😆😆

Everyone here has opposed surrogacy for any couples, regardless of sex or sexual orientation. We have merely pointed out that when we oppose surrogacy in relation to gay couples, we will be falsely accused of homophobia - and you have duly demonstrated that this is precisely what happens.

And the more you repeat this cynical exercise, the more you prove our point.

Except, I've repeated multiple times - opposing surrogacy in itself is not homophobic.

Opposing surrogacy only by gay couples would be homophobic.

And specifically for this thread, directing your opposition to surrogacy at gay couples (for example by starting threads only about gay couples) even if you are theoretically opposed to all surrogacy is also homophobic.

logiccalls · 08/09/2025 12:07

The great difficulty is the Giselle Pericot paradox i.e. the banality of evil, in normal, very ordinary men, exactly like your DP DS DF, and every other man.

This would form a thesis, but , obviously, a lot of harm arises from men and women wrongly assuming the opposite sex THINKS like they do:

For example, for males, an intimate encounter with a stranger is almost always painless and with no lifelong results. So, even if most of them don't spend time seeking such opportunities, they may, at some low level, always be willing. It only takes a few minutes, and it's pleasant, so why not?

Therefore, when some men excuse themselves from using force, and say "she wanted it really" or "she will enjoy it once it starts", they may at least to a small extent genuinely not quite understand that for females it can often be the opposite, that the encounter will often be painful and could lead to pregnancy, life-changing or even fatal, which never happens to men, or to disease, which is evidently not a particular worry to men, but is more easily caught by women and can have more serious effects.

Male police, judges or juries might truly not fully comprehend that there was no consent, notably if the accused seems presentable and is without those 'monster-identifier' fangs -plus- snarling.

"She didn't consent, so she says, but... surely she would have done, wouldn't she?" Or, "She would have enjoyed it once it started, wouldn't she?" "I wouldn't turn down a chance, would you?" "It was an opportunity for a few minutes of pleasure, so why not?"

At the same time, women with fifty years of happy marriage, children, grandchildren, are not going to think it possible their DH could be a serial rapist. A woman almost needs to delude herself, rather than accept that DH could be what she prefers to think is a very rare thing; a monster, probably snarling and with fangs, as seen in story books. She won't/can't let it cross her mind that the reason her DP wanted her to have a baby, or was keen to marry her when he knew she has a baby, or wants to look after the baby, is because he wants to abuse it.

There is a collusion-in-cosy- complacency,, in the pretty world of the so-far -unaware. Expressions of shock and incredulity, and the use of words like 'monster' betray a dangerous false notion that all men think like women, therefore all men are as safe as women, to be alone with women and children.

It is only the recent fashion for men to film themselves while abusing, that has made it plain beyond doubt, with undeniable proof, that with all men, ill-intent towards prey is not inevitable, but is seldom totally impossible.

NAMALT, maybe, but the routine starting assumption would better be that All Men MIGHT be like that, given exactly the right opportunity, a good chance of getting away with it, and the unwitting abetting and collusion of deluded and non-suspicious prey, or guardians of prey, or makers of policy, or holders of 'nice' conventional assumptions.

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 12:08

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:50

So if there was a post saying that gay women are as bad as straight women in some respect or other - would you not find that post problematic?

Would you not think that falls foul of the "sweeping negative generalisations about any group" will not be tolerated Mumsnet moderation principles?

I think in many of these rhetorical situations we can take "not all men", "not all gay men", "not all straight women" etc for granted.

The OP's real point was that unjustified male privilege utilised in a gay male context is no more defensible than in a straight male context.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 12:08

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 11:57

I reported the OP's post on Saturday night for falling foul of their own moderation principles on negative sweeping generalisations about any group. Mumsnet have done nothing.

Maybe because there remains some public interest in the topic at large perhaps...

...there are exceptions that should be allowed on these grounds.

MN still maintains that principle too.

Maybe they should be utter jobsworths because that's a better strategy in the interests of society as a whole and wouldn't have terrible unintended consequences in its own right. What do you think?

The principle of the OP was that gay surrogacy was the new 'be kind' where cancellation ruled and was more important than having difficult conversations around force teaming and silencing complex discussions because it was all about saying the right things in the right way - rather than to be homophobic.

The intention of the OP didn't look homophobic to me. More that they were fed up of being forced teamed and women being only valued when useful.

And pretty much every poster except for the two desperate to shit on MN and who have been out to shit on MN for donkeys understood that point...

It always comes back to this desperate attempt to shut down MN and make it look bad, because some people can't stand women talking about things that affect them and how they are invisible, overlooked and only valued as a commodity to provide children or sex.

Meh.

BeanQuisine · 08/09/2025 12:09

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:07

Except, I've repeated multiple times - opposing surrogacy in itself is not homophobic.

Opposing surrogacy only by gay couples would be homophobic.

And specifically for this thread, directing your opposition to surrogacy at gay couples (for example by starting threads only about gay couples) even if you are theoretically opposed to all surrogacy is also homophobic.

It's still not working for you and never will, but carry on. 😉

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:09

TheKeatingFive · 08/09/2025 11:47

Can we be mindful that certain posters would love to distract us by accusing us all of homophobia - rather than have us discuss the very real moral problems with Surrogacy.

You mean like the substantive point in my first post on this thread about the primal wound theory that all but one poster has studiously ignored?

Those sort of 'very real moral issues'?

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 12:15

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 12:08

Maybe because there remains some public interest in the topic at large perhaps...

...there are exceptions that should be allowed on these grounds.

MN still maintains that principle too.

Maybe they should be utter jobsworths because that's a better strategy in the interests of society as a whole and wouldn't have terrible unintended consequences in its own right. What do you think?

The principle of the OP was that gay surrogacy was the new 'be kind' where cancellation ruled and was more important than having difficult conversations around force teaming and silencing complex discussions because it was all about saying the right things in the right way - rather than to be homophobic.

The intention of the OP didn't look homophobic to me. More that they were fed up of being forced teamed and women being only valued when useful.

And pretty much every poster except for the two desperate to shit on MN and who have been out to shit on MN for donkeys understood that point...

It always comes back to this desperate attempt to shut down MN and make it look bad, because some people can't stand women talking about things that affect them and how they are invisible, overlooked and only valued as a commodity to provide children or sex.

Meh.

"Maybe they should be utter jobsworths because that's a better strategy in the interests of society as a whole and wouldn't have terrible unintended consequences in its own right. What do you think?"

What do I think? I think Mumsnet are quite happy to be 'utter jobsworths' as you describe it, on some occasions during moderation and not on others. And their lack of consistency and adherence to their own stated principles is disappointing.

BaseDrops · 08/09/2025 12:19

I’ve said this before but it is worth repeating.

There are only 2 things which men can’t have without a woman.

Sex - if heterosexual.
Children.

Men who want biological children via surrogacy can’t do this without a consenting woman.

The only time Gay men must obtain a woman’s consent is when commissioning biological children via surrogacy.

This must impact how they approach the whole surrogacy process. Commercial versus altruistic surrogacy. The relationship with the surrogate during gestation. The birth. Post birth.

The advances in fertility medicine have not been matched with changes in the ethical considerations.

I don’t believe commercial surrogacy should be legal anywhere and I question why countries that allow it do not see the similarities with commercial organ donation which is banned everywhere except for state regulated kidney donation in Iran.