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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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5
Helleofabore · 03/09/2025 12:05

MarieDeGournay · 03/09/2025 11:13

I've had a quick trawl through some French-language Algerian news websites [I don't have Arabic] and it looks like a lot of them aren't really talking bout IK much at all - searches returning nothing at all. Defending the indefensible too difficult??

I found one site, La Gazette de Fennec, which on the contrary is running lots of stories on him , including the [alleged] inside story on what happened with the coach who said he was going to retire from boxing. [he is a baddie who never had IK's back, apparently....]

He is referred to as a woman but there are a couple of references to the challenges to IK's biological sex, which are strangely matter-of-fact, let's-wait-and-see, rather than the previous 'how dare they say that about our wonderful National Heroine' and 'it's all a plot by the evil Moroccans..'

One interesting point from that report was that in order to get a professional contract, IK needed to compete in 5 more amateur contests - don't ask me why 5, I'm just quoting! Which would explain the panic around testing having to take place right now, because IK wouldn't be able to achieve the 5 bouts needed to turn pro.

So there's probably a whole retinue of investors and backers and the shady figures that proliferate in pro boxing, waiting to see if IK is certifiably female and worth investing in, or certifiably male in which case he will probably be discarded like a losing betting slip.

5 more eh.

Well. That explains it.

HappyNewTaxYear · 03/09/2025 13:33

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2025 07:44

It's all hot air to try and pr his way out of the situation.

I doubt there will be a court case. It's all about the optics in Algeria and being able to claim racism and unfair treatment without a loss of face.

Even if this does go to court, the evidence about risk to women is so great it will be deemed proportionate on safety grounds. So I'm not remotely concerned.

I am just waiting for the 'im sorry we handled this wrongly and were wrong' from all those who prattled on about prejudice and how Khelif was a woman. So far there's tumbleweeds.

Yes I’d like to see my self-described feminist acquaintances on social media withdraw their handwringing posts about how mean we all were to this poor ‘woman’ who just happened to look like a man.

GailBlancheViola · 03/09/2025 14:54

who just happened to look like a man.

FFS did their brains fall out? He looked like a man because he is one, he knows, the coaches know,, the Algerian Government know, everyone fucking knows but it was way more important to them to enable him to cheat.

ShuriPouri · 03/09/2025 20:07

Sorry if I am being a noobette here but I thought IK was intersexed and raised as a girl by their family??

that would be different to a trans woman who is actually a man, raised as a male and assigned as a male at birth. ?

not trying to be disrespectful, I am deffo all for Women only spaces and not having men in women’s sports etc, but thought this case was more nuanced than a trans woman entering a woman’s sports in order to clean up the prizes.

Apollo441 · 03/09/2025 20:16

ShuriPouri · 03/09/2025 20:07

Sorry if I am being a noobette here but I thought IK was intersexed and raised as a girl by their family??

that would be different to a trans woman who is actually a man, raised as a male and assigned as a male at birth. ?

not trying to be disrespectful, I am deffo all for Women only spaces and not having men in women’s sports etc, but thought this case was more nuanced than a trans woman entering a woman’s sports in order to clean up the prizes.

IK has a DSD that only affects males. Probably 46XY ARD.
He is male. He was probably misclassified at birth (not unknown in non first world countries) but by the time he hit male puberty it would be obvious.

ShuriPouri · 03/09/2025 20:22

Apollo441 · 03/09/2025 20:16

IK has a DSD that only affects males. Probably 46XY ARD.
He is male. He was probably misclassified at birth (not unknown in non first world countries) but by the time he hit male puberty it would be obvious.

What does dsd and 46ard mean? Male chromosome? Again a noobette!

MinnieCauldwell · 03/09/2025 20:25

ShuriPouri · 03/09/2025 20:07

Sorry if I am being a noobette here but I thought IK was intersexed and raised as a girl by their family??

that would be different to a trans woman who is actually a man, raised as a male and assigned as a male at birth. ?

not trying to be disrespectful, I am deffo all for Women only spaces and not having men in women’s sports etc, but thought this case was more nuanced than a trans woman entering a woman’s sports in order to clean up the prizes.

Intersex doesn't exist. All humans are either male or female. Anyone born with a Y chromosome will have a male puberty even if they outwardly present as female.

NecessaryScene · 03/09/2025 20:33

thought this case was more nuanced than a trans woman entering a woman’s sports in order to clean up the prizes.

Not really - both are a man knowingly entering the incorrect category, trying to steal prizes from women.

The history leading up to their decision to cheat is irrelevant, and the history generally is unclear anyway - "raised as a girl" claims tend to be rather sketchy - rather just a case of "well, they would say that, wouldn't they". There might have been a birth misclassification, but being male would have become obvious at puberty, long before the Olympics.

If there ever was a time they were genuinely unaware they were male, they had an ethical responsibility to withdraw from female competition as soon as they knew they were ineligible.

Erik Schinegger is an example of someone who did do the right thing in the 1960s, but unfortunately was punished by being unfairly barred from attempting to qualify in the male category:

There has never been anything stopping Semenya and Khelif from doing the right thing, as Schinegger did.

What does dsd and 46ard mean? Male chromosome?

DSD = Disorder (or difference) of Sexual Development - a more accurate and preferred general term for "intersex" conditions

5-ARD 46XY = the specific DSD condition that Semenya and Khelif have, that is deliberately scouted for. It can lead to misclassification as female at birth, while having absolutely no impact on general male body development beyond the genitalia. Hence producing the ideal athlete - someone with full male ability but female birth ID.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_2_deficiency

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ShuriPouri · 03/09/2025 21:22

NecessaryScene · 03/09/2025 20:33

thought this case was more nuanced than a trans woman entering a woman’s sports in order to clean up the prizes.

Not really - both are a man knowingly entering the incorrect category, trying to steal prizes from women.

The history leading up to their decision to cheat is irrelevant, and the history generally is unclear anyway - "raised as a girl" claims tend to be rather sketchy - rather just a case of "well, they would say that, wouldn't they". There might have been a birth misclassification, but being male would have become obvious at puberty, long before the Olympics.

If there ever was a time they were genuinely unaware they were male, they had an ethical responsibility to withdraw from female competition as soon as they knew they were ineligible.

Erik Schinegger is an example of someone who did do the right thing in the 1960s, but unfortunately was punished by being unfairly barred from attempting to qualify in the male category:

There has never been anything stopping Semenya and Khelif from doing the right thing, as Schinegger did.

What does dsd and 46ard mean? Male chromosome?

DSD = Disorder (or difference) of Sexual Development - a more accurate and preferred general term for "intersex" conditions

5-ARD 46XY = the specific DSD condition that Semenya and Khelif have, that is deliberately scouted for. It can lead to misclassification as female at birth, while having absolutely no impact on general male body development beyond the genitalia. Hence producing the ideal athlete - someone with full male ability but female birth ID.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_2_deficiency

Ah okay thanks. I did not know that.

And have learnt something new. I was not aware of what DSD was but knew a little about intersex. Semenya is from SA right? The runner. I remember her from previous olymics.

ty!

OverlyFragrant · 03/09/2025 21:28

@necessaryscene thank you for that.
Erik Schinegger is a fascinating chap and has more integrity in a toenail than IK has in his entire body.

ThatCyanCat · 03/09/2025 21:35

Fuck's sake, the jig is up, mate. Even people who pretended to believe he was a woman are now going for the "no male advantage" and "can't define a woman" shit instead.

orangegato · 03/09/2025 21:50

No actual women appealing? Not one? Curious.

OnTheRoof · 03/09/2025 21:53

Apollo441 · 03/09/2025 20:16

IK has a DSD that only affects males. Probably 46XY ARD.
He is male. He was probably misclassified at birth (not unknown in non first world countries) but by the time he hit male puberty it would be obvious.

He's also been at pains to point out that he isn't trans.

MagpiePi · 03/09/2025 22:12

It would be interesting to know what is being used as the basis of the appeal.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:47

Resurrecting this thread to update it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/02/04/sport/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-olympics-politics-intl-cmd

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

“Of course, I would accept doing anything I’m required to do to participate in competitions,” she said, underlining that she respects the IOC and its authority.
“They should protect women, but they need to pay attention that while protecting women, they shouldn’t hurt other women,” she added.

It’s the first time Khelif has publicly addressed whether she would take such a test since last year’s move by the sport’s international amateur governing body to introduce mandatory genetic testing for all boxers over the age of 18, saying it would “ensure the safety of all participants and deliver a competitive level playing field for men and women.”

and

Khelif has never said she is a DSD athlete.

She does have naturally high testosterone levels, which she said she has been reducing under medical supervision since well before the Paris Olympics, rejecting claims that her hormones have determined her success in boxing.

“I was born like this. Of course, I have hormonal differences. But I decrease my testosterone levels based on my doctor’s recommendations,” Khelif said.

“Boxing does not rely on the level of testosterone. Boxing relies on intelligence, on experience and on discipline,” she added.

So... Khelif will do a sex test. OK. So, does that mean that for the next couple of years until the Olympics, this male athlete will trade on that and then retire before the next Olympics? He is now 26.

Olympic boxer Imane Khelif wants to fight – but only in the ring. She’s prepared to take a test to do so | CNN

Imane Khelif, the Olympic Algerian boxer who became a political target following her 2024 Paris Games win speaks exclusively to CNN about private details of her troubles and her plan to fight back.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/02/04/sport/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-olympics-politics-intl-cmd

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:52

Here is another article from today. There must be something that Khelif is trying to get ahead of ? An IOC announcement? That should be soon, shouldn't it?

https://www.firstpost.com/sports/imane-khelif-hormone-treatment-transgender-13976418.html

Imane Khelif admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024, says she is ‘not a trans woman’

“I have female hormones. And people don’t know this, but I have taken hormone treatments to lower my testosterone levels for competitions,” the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published Wednesday.

and

Khelif said it was for doctors and professors to “decide”, but stated: “We all have different genetics, different hormone levels. I’m not transgender. My difference is natural. This is who I am. I haven’t done anything to change the way nature made me. That’s why I’m not afraid.”

Khelif, who has not fought since the Paris Games, as World Boxing prevented her from participating in last year’s tournament in the Netherlands because she had not undergone the newly introduced chromosome test, revealed she is awaiting a French professional boxing licence.

She said for her, it was “the logical next step”, but added that did not mean she was giving up on competing in two year’s time in LA.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 05/02/2026 16:55

I suppose Caster Semenya has been getting away with it for years - he probably just thought why not me too.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:57

I will keep an eye out. Apparently according to SEEN Journalism on X there is this French article too.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Boxe/Actualites/La-boxeuse-imane-khelif-repond-a-donald-trump-je-ne-suis-pas-une-trans-je-suis-une-fille/1639455

SEEN tweet says:

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/2019304036118200612?s=20

'Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity, admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024 and says she [sic] is ‘not a trans woman’.

Why does any journalist buy this. He's a man, and he's not 'accused of being trans'. He's accused of hiding the fact that he's a man (which he effectively denies in this interview). Growing up 'as a girl', being known in your village 'as a girl' - any sports reporter who is interviewing Khelif (or as here, writing up an interview from another paper) should have done their research on the fact that people with DSDs can indeed be wrongly 'assigned at birth'.

'For the next Games, if I have to take a test, I will. I have no problem with that'

None of this is about 'gender testing' - the only people introducing 'gender' are Khelif and the journalists.

'I’ve already taken this test. I contacted World Boxing, I sent them my medical records, my hormone tests, everything. But I haven’t had any response. I’m not hiding, I’m not refusing the tests'

Unless it is in this article I cannot yet find where this:

'Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity, admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024 and says she [sic] is ‘not a trans woman’.

has been confirmed.

La boxeuse Imane Khelif répond à Donald Trump : « Je ne suis pas une trans, je suis une fille »

Au cours d'un long entretien accordé à « L'Équipe », la boxeuse algérienne Imane Khelif, médaillée d'or aux Jeux de Paris, a répondu aux critiques du président américain Donald Trump à son encontre.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Boxe/Actualites/La-boxeuse-imane-khelif-repond-a-donald-trump-je-ne-suis-pas-une-trans-je-suis-une-fille/1639455

heathspeedwell · 05/02/2026 16:58

Caster Semenya said for years that he just had 'naturally high testosterone levels' too. Lots of women assumed he was a woman with PCOS or similar. Then he changed tack and tried to claim that having internal testicles didn't make him 'less of a woman'. But he ruined any chance of people believing he was brought up as a girl by publishing a photo of himself as a teen wearing nothing but a pair of men's swimming trunks.

heathspeedwell · 05/02/2026 17:01

For anyone new to reading about 46 XY 5ARD, this is from Oliver Brown in the Telegraph from Dec 24:
"One common misconception is that Caster Semenya, the 800 metres champion, whose victory would prove a trigger for Coe’s rules rethink, simply has abnormally high levels of testosterone. But a Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling in 2019 delivers a stark truth: that Semenya’s condition of 46XY 5-alpha reductase deficiency means the South African has the circulating testosterone of a man. The clue is in the letters XY. This helps illuminate the uproar over Khelif and Lin. Given that their chromosomes are said by the IBA to be XY, any female boxer facing them is left exposed to the full spectrum of performance disparities between the sexes. And when academic literature establishes that the average man punches 2.6 times harder than a woman, these mismatches are not just irresponsible, but potentially lethal.
... Khelif is also still threatening to sue Elon Musk and JK Rowling for cyber harassment. Surely, if you are intent on telling the world you are a woman, a quicker and more cost-effective strategy is to take the cheek swab that can remove any doubt."

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:06

Here it is:

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-imane-khelif-reveals-she-took-hormone-treatment-before-paris-olympics67501719.html#

Olympic boxing champion Imane Khelif revealed in an interview with French sports daily L'Equipe that she had undergone hormone treatments to lower her testosterone levels ahead of the 2024 Games, but reaffirmed that she is not "transgender." Khelif was embroiled in a gender row at the Paris Games where she won gold in the women's 66kg category.

"I have female hormones. And people don't know this, but I have taken hormone treatments to lower my testosterone levels for competitions," the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published on Wednesday, February 4. Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity. "Yes, and it's natural," she said, adding that she is "surrounded by doctors, a professor is monitoring me... For the Paris Games qualifying tournament, which took place in Dakar, I lowered my testosterone levels to zero".

"the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published on Wednesday, February 4. Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity."

well now...

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:13

I don't think he and his team realise what he has just admitted.

That he has XY chromosomes, an active SRY gene AND processes testosterone. Because he would not have to lower testosterone if his body was not processing it to masculinise...

It seems he is so focused on declaring he is not transgender, which I don't believe people who knew what they were talking about thought anyway, that he has admitted that it is likely to be a masculinising DSD. Likely 5ARD which was what experts suggested all along.

DamsonGoldfinch · 05/02/2026 17:18

He’s admitted what we have always known - that he’s a man with a DSD. Good luck with his appeal to the CAS. They told Semenya to sling his hook and will do the same to Khelif.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:24

I predict that he will go pro and not attend the Olympics. Or he will just retire before the Olympics.

The admission simply doesn’t seem consistent with what we know about male DSDs and him passing a sex test. Maybe he means in the current boxing regs… where he has to continue to reduce testosterone and not a future test for specific genes that would exclude him etc.