SEEN in Journalism: The BBC and preferred pronouns

[SionnachRuadh]

Another valuable substack from SEEN in Journalism, detailing the BBC's wildly inconsistent use of pronouns in crime reporting, where it seems that some criminals merit the use of wrong-sex pronouns and others don't - though they're still very reluctant to say a male criminal is male if the criminal says otherwise.

The BBC and 'preferred pronouns' - it's not over yet

I think the difference is between reporting somebody's belief and reporting a belief as though it is true.

"Jane believes that she has been saved by Christ and will therefore go to heaven" - reporting of a neutral fact
"Jane has been saved by Christ and will therefore go to heaven" - not reporting of a neutral fact.

There is added confusion when reporting on sex and gender using preferred pronouns, because it's not clear what is being referenced. Whether or not we find that irritating, sometimes that has no impact on the story, but in situations like those referenced on this thread, it obscures information in a way that makes the story unintelligible.

"I think the difference is between reporting somebody's belief and reporting a belief as though it is true."

Personality traits that produce gendered behaviours aren't a belief. The are a biological fact.

Are you suggesting your personality traits aren't 'real'? They only exist insofar as you believe them to?

I'm really glad that we are getting to the nub of the issue. Gender identity is just personality traits. Got there in the end.

Although going back to the people in the articles mentioned, there is no evidence that they have any personality traits that don't conform to gendered expectations of their sex.

OK let’s take you seriously. This is what you think a policy that neutrally seeks to correctly-gender people should be looking to as the test:

"The behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"

So, would you say that mass shootings and a desire to murder (behavioural and psychological traits) are more typically associated with the male or female sex, in modern US culture?

So what gender is the killer?

"I'm really glad that we are getting to the nub of the issue. Gender identity is just personality traits. Got there in the end."

Gender identity is a consequence of personality traits. Trans people don't make the rules on gendered associations to sex, wider society does. You do this yourself routinely in your day to day social interactions where you categorise sex based on archetypical gendered associations not reproductive traits in practice because you usually don't know what they are. Hence gender being a social construct. IE social categorisation.

OK let’s take you seriously. This is what you think should be respected in pronoun choice, and this should be done neutrally:
"The behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"
So, would you say that mass shootings and a desire to murder (behavioural and psychological traits) are more typically associated with the male or female sex, in modern US culture?
So what gender is the killer?

One behavioural trait doesn't make up total personality. It's also up to the individual whether they consider their sex or gender a defining feature.

What I would like to know is, do our visiting TAs have a rota (ok Bob you’re on Mumsnet on Tuesday, let’s see some good misogynistic chiding there; Alan you’re on all of next week, can your mum get you some more takeaway pizzas? Nah, don’t worry about washing) or is there just one of them who occasionally changes names? I think just one. They’ve all got the same bow-before-my-idiotic-and-incoherent-argument-women approach, none of them can present decent evidence and none seem to have any critical thinking skills.

...aaaaaand the gendered behaviour is back in the room.

We don't need to examine behaviour: this is purely about belief. And it's a very unusual belief system because it relates, not just to external reality, but to the nature of humans themselves.

Unless you're an air-traffic controller, it's easy to accommodate flat-earthers. Not so when you encounter someone who thinks they are the opposite of their actual sex.

Name and pronoun usage doesn't have to mean you're agreeing with their belief. It might just be a courtesy. It can cause practical problems (passim) but in the end that might be worth it, because trans people really shouldn't be entitled to anything else (ie not cross-sex sex-based rights, and not the right to conceal their sex) so this - a mostly harmless social convention - and some anti-discrimination law might be all they end up with.

So, as the people in these articles look male and there is no evidence that they have any personality traits associated with women, their gender is masculine.

Good to have cleared that up. Will inform the BBC.

We don't need to examine behaviour:

Of course you don't because facts are inconvenient to your 'belief' narrative.

Name and pronoun usage doesn't have to mean you're agreeing with their belief. It might just be a courtesy.

I agree here. It's courtesy like using someone's preferred nick name than name.

It can cause practical problems (passim) but in the end that might be worth it, because trans people really shouldn't be entitled to anything else (ie not cross-sex sex-based rights, and not the right to conceal their sex) so this - a mostly harmless social convention - and some anti-discrimination law might be all they end up with.

Kinda implicates everyone as undeserving given self determination is a human right…

You've flipped back to "sex" not "gender" here.

When you say "the argument that men are more prone to violence" that's people of the male sex, not anyone who identifies as a man.

That's a gender critical argument that women need private spaces away from people of the male sex, not people with a male gender.

What if someone wants to be referred to as a gender that they are not?

I think they're a bit varied. I've mostly been arguing on the same side as this one, but I might as well talk to myself.

Gender identity is a consequence of personality traits.

I've never heard anything so transphobic in all my days. Gender identity is innate. Its what tells you your true biological sex (irrespective of your physiology). Personality has nothing to do with it. I can't believe @Howseitgoin doesn't know that!

"What if someone wants to be referred to as a gender that they are not?"

Can you elaborate?

You've flipped back to "sex" not "gender" here.
When you say "the argument that men are more prone to violence" that's people of the male sex, not anyone who identifies as a man.
That's a gender critical argument that women need private spaces away from people of the male sex, not people with a male gender.

You are confused. The poster suggested sexed behaviours aren't real. I simply pointed to behaviours associated to the male sex as evidence. I said nothing about trans men.

Do you believe that trans idenfitied females have male pattern criminality?

Really depends what you mean by 'self determination'. Other people have rights too, and that will always impose limits.

Identifying as a woman doesn't mean that you behave in a "woman gender" kind of way, does it? Some transwomen may love wearing make-up, fashion, knitting and watching romantic comedies. Other transwomen may enjoy kinky sex and dominating the women around them. Others may only start to identify as women when they're arrested for a crime. A transwoman may have made no changes to his body and may happily sport a full beard and wear typically male clothes. He may even have kept his male name. The BBC would presumably deem all of these to be women as soon as they claim to be one.

Nobody asks anyone how they would like to be referred to if they commit a crime. They are described and labelled in the most obvious way. By name, age and sex. It is only those who have adopted trans identities that are given special treatment, as if they are some kind of fragile, unique creature who even when involved in hideous criminality must be 'respected'. It is absolutely and totally ridiculous nonsense.

'Self determination' is not an absolute human right...it is liberal western construct. We all exist in the context of a culture and a society and also within a web of relations and obligations on which we are inter-dependent.

'Defining features' are decided by other people, not by the person being defined.They cannot possibly say what defines them in the eyes of others.

Only a self absorbed narcissist would say something like " Well, this is my defining feature"

It is not about private spaces away from male people......we all require privacy from time to time, male or female.

Women and girls have single sex spaces, services and facilities in order to protect the dignity and privacy of their sex in certain types if intimate situation in which the naked/undressed body or its biological function is emphasised.

Sex is not 'respected' it is reported and recorded.

Gender is an ephemeral construct, not a material or measurable fact.

Well, if someone displays behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with males, but wants to be referred to as female.

Should the BBC mis-gender them in that circumstance?