"Give Us The Freedom To Risk Rape"

[Howseitgoin]

Famed feminist Camille Paglia's interesting views on women's freedoms:

"Yes this is probably the most controversial area that I have written about.
From the start, when I became known in the early 1990s, this has been, my views on this subject have been highly inflammatory.

And I am coming to the subject from the point of view of a 1960s women, who, as a student, when I arrived as a freshman, my first year in 1964, the college, rebelled against the strict surveillance by the college administration of the lives of the women students.

This was the period that was called 'in loco parentis', that is, 'in place of the parents'. The college administrations felt that they had the obligation to supervise, to monitor, and protect the women students as they did not the male students.

Hence we had all girl dormitories and all male dormitories. The men could come and go at any hour of the day or night. We women had to sign in at 11 o'clock at night, so that the authorities of the college knew where. And we said, my generation rebelled, and called for an end to this practice. And they said, the world is dangerous, we have an obligation to protect you against rape. And what we said was 'give us the freedom to risk rape. That is true freedom'. That is what the sexual revolution gave to women.

Now, what will women do with the freedom? Feminism should have taken my view and said that 'now, you are an equal of a man and you must protect yourself as a man would. You must see the world as dangerous as a man would.' You must be as defensive and hyper-aware of your surroundings as a man would. Because men too are attacked for all kinds of things. Men too are the victims of crime and so on.

Instead, we've had this process of women calling for protections, a new paternalism, from the government and now from the college administrations again. They want to draw the parent figures back into their sex lives. This to me, is a major major fault of contemporary feminism. There are great responsibilities that come with freedom. And one of them is that you must take responsibility for your own defense."

Seems particularly relevant in terms of today's demand for 'women's private spaces'

Thoughts?

So that doesn’t “debunk” the “myth” that transgender men ( transwomen) are more likely to be in prison for sexual offences than none transgender men ?

gay men are also more likely to be abused than straight men

as are I suspect disabled men

the problem is men who make up the vast majority of convictions for violence

i not saying that transgender people don’t experience problems and abuse. What I am saying is that the way to solve that isn’t to increase the risk to women

especially in prisons people seen as sexual abusers will get a rough time - and men going into women’s paces will make them seem to be abusers. You are pushing for the very thing that will make violence against transgender people more likely. Do you really want to do that?

The OP spent a whole thread unable to actually articulate what they thought instead linking mainly to wiki entries and telling us to google. The OP though did find time to tell us, in among other interesting insults:

Wake up useful idiots· 26/08/2025 14:21

There's a reason why gender criticals are stereotyped as irrational zealots… 27/08/2025 02.18

Trans women are four times as likely to be abused by men in their bathrooms. There's a decreased risk in women's. Comprende? 17/08/2025 03.43

Um, trans women are women so that's irrelevant. 27/08/2025 04.00

Couldn't have done it without all those dedicated cookers out there, pat on the back to my loyal dancing squirrels 🐿🐿🐿
And on my debutante outing too. AND AND I'm just warming up…. 27/08/2025 12.47

So I'm not holding out much hope of thoughtful discussion and analysis from the OP.

Is this the delightful OP who calls women anyone who disagrees with them fascists?

I don't think OP has called us fascists, but does think we are idiots.

Interruptaron incoming again.

That "research" is virtually all about the risks to transwomen from being in prison, not about how much of a risk they are to women.

None of us here wish harm on transwomen prisoners, but the solution to that is to deal with the males who are causing harm, not (yet again) to transfer the risk to women.

Preventing men from accessing single sex spaces for women doesn't restrict women's freedom in the slightest. Women are free to come and go from these spaces as they see fit. The spaces serve only to enhance our freedom, as we may otherwise, in some circumstances choose to self exclude from activity due to the presence of men. The only restriction on freedom arising from womens SS spaces is on the men who wish to access them. If you want to argue that men shouldn't have their freedom to access spaces they have no need to be restricted, in order to protect women, then, go at it. But that's a male rights argument, not a feminist one. Frankly this line of argument is one of the biggest stretches I've come across in the whole debate. Desperate times.

"That "research" is virtually all about the risks to transwomen from being in prison, not about how much of a risk they are to women.
None of us here wish harm on transwomen prisoners, but the solution to that is to deal with the males who are causing harm, not (yet again) to transfer the risk to women."

False:

"Transgender People, Crime and Prisons – Prevalence
While there is a consistent stream of media attention concerning trans people involved in crime, statistics show cisgender people commit crimes more regularly than trans people. The makeup of the England & Wales (E&W) prison population shows this:
The E & W cisgender population is 59.6 million – the cisgender prison population is 87,900 = 0.15% of people in E & W are in prison.
The E & W trans population is 262,000 – the trans prison population is 268 = 0.1% of trans people in E & W are in prison.
From this statistic, we learn that cisgender people commit crimes at a 50% higher rate than trans people.
Evidence from the research conducted by Olga Suhomlinova and Saoirse Caitlin O’Shea using official statistics dating from 2021 revealed that while 0.5% of the population identify as transgender or non-binary, they represented just 0.2% of the prison population.
Transgender People, Crime and Prisons – Trans Women & Trans Men
Another anomaly in the statistics is that while 96% of the cisgender prison population is male and 4% female, the trans prison population is 84% trans women and 16% trans men. The reasons likely include trans men suffering depression, anxiety, discrimination, unemployment issues, and, consequently, poverty. For safety reasons, trans men nearly always elect to be housed in the female estate. Likewise, as long as not convicted of any violent or threatening act against natal females, trans women should be housed according to the safety risk they face.
One ex-offender trans woman who was held in the male estate for the entirety of her sentence said on release:
“I’ve lost count of the things that happened to me inside. I’ve been cut with razor blades; I was stripped and pinned down. I had boiling hot water, and sugar poured all over me. I got stabbed. In Wakefield, I was raped. In Feltham, I was gang-raped – the group stuck a pool cue in me”.
Because of gender-critical and right-wing media campaigns, there has been a significant reversal of public opinion and policy regarding the placement of trans offenders. In October 2015, the BBC reported that over 140,000 people signed a petition to move trans woman Tara Hudson from a male-to-female prison – the final figure reached was 158,197. Given all the negative trans women publicity over recent years, it is inconceivable that this would now occur. Still, with a policy of trans women almost certainly being placed in male prisons, it remains vital that policy decisions are evidence-based and not perception-based."

Aah! Now I understand someone is getting any reference to prior postings removed.

I am guessig the OP will not be answering the question:

How would that babygrow fit into your activism?

So women should not be allow to have spaces that men can not enter and child sex abuse and a 0 - 3 month babygrow annnnnd the college student

"Now, secondly, I am saying that communication and sexual communication [by a baby or an adult] is far more than words [ yep the whole not talking is a problem at that baby age]. Sexual communication is by the body. There's a whole series of non-verbal modes by which we communicate [ask MN a baby with no language can communicate for hours] . Our interest in sex or our readiness for sex and [ what?? Did someone cut a section? or did she drop a thought into a writers abyss] one of them is dress [ yep the "sexy" babygrow]. So it seems to me that the contemporary woman [or baby] has not fully thought through the nature of her dress [well seeing how the baby had no choice in the outfit that is "fair comment"]. The way she dresses and how much flesh she exposes, it contains a sexual message [yep arms and hands, feet and legs, necks and faces]. I'm saying to women [and babies], expose your body! Do as much as you want! But be ready to defend [once the baby manages to roll over that will get much easier]. Watch out for the dangers of the world. Not just the man who was of your own social class [not much of an issue here babies dont understand social classes yet], a man who you recognise and go on a date with [these days most societies agree babies are a little young to date or marry so it about focusing on who is safeguarding access (hint mothers ) and how to recognise dangers] and whose language you speak. But also the world out there of the primitive beasts [the "nice boy" would not sexually assault shite argument ] that are still circling, and human nature has all kinds of primitive energies in it which are constrained and trained through civilising power, but many people are psychotics. There are many psychotics [as I have pointed out on other threads a man went to court in Ireland to prove that wanting to stab his mother to death and rape her as she bleeds out did not mean that he was not sane.
FYI the State gave him a GRC and put him in a women prison.
The next trial about rape and death threats :
"I wanted to use an electric rod, but that wasn’t available to me. I remember thinking I wanted to use the handle of a sweeping brush or a mop. I wanted to torture her [Ms McGhee] sexually, I wanted to sexually electrocute her genitalia,” replied Kardashian.
Even that witness statement did not result in a jury saying guilty].
You could have 999 rational men [some of whom could carry out sexual assaults/murder etc], and there will be the one psychotic. A woman [and a baby] must be prepared to defend herself against the psychotic [and the not psycotic man]. Because the one psychotic [or not psychotic man] can kill her. Not just rape her, but kill her. They're out there. Predatory, they're beasts of prey, they're out there, they're like living manifestations of the diabolic [the "nice boy" would not sexually assault shite argument again], primitive energies still latent in human beings.
It's what movies show us, it's what Psycho shows us, the great masterpiece by Alfred Hitchcock [aka Stranger Danger taught to a child in a safe home]. With Janet Leigh [the danger of mixing real life with movie fiction is failing to identify that the victim was Marion Crane] wandering into a motel and getting butchered by a psychotic [👀🚩note the langage construction "aimless" action resulted in "obtaining" harm] . The evidence is there of the latent criminality of many apparently mild-mannered individuals etc.
[🤳 👁👁
Well this is ....humm...Awkward? ....
yep Awkward ......
if one is to argue that some men should be given acces but not all men?
but one may now be arguing that all men should be given access on demand?
.... 🤷‍♀️ awkward ]
So what I'm arguing for is that feminism seems to me has become almost stupid in denying that sexual dress [ one must including babygrows in this discussion on "primitive beasts" who read messsages from clothing] conveys a sexual message. So again I encourage, I love flamboyant body exposing sexual dress [then it is handy that she is an adult who can pick her clothing]. But this is why I call my feminism drag-queen feminism [👀 men centered feminism]. Because the drag queens [men in case anyone missed her point], the old drag queens, they were women of the street [she is implying i guess male prostitutes here when she decided to used that specific term] . And I call my feminism street-smart [the action movie type not real life dont walk down dark allys or through a group of men] feminism as well, they [the men with male strenght] would dress as women [oh no Dear Reader not just a woman womening but as drag queens], very subject to attack, to assault, and they had to defend themselves, on the street [men kill men during on-street violence every day the courts are kept busy with violent men who batter other men (mostly just a man mening)]. And they would defend themselves with their fists [yep physical upper body strenght matters when using physical upper body strenght to fight. Hint: Grown women still dont match mens upper body strenght but have better odds than a baby.], they would whip off their high heel [bless the movies but tell me you have never been in a fight without telling me you have never been in a fight], hit people [she just "peopled" men while dis-arming them🙄] over the head with it and so on, they [ which of the men is she referring to here??] could be killed.
This kind of pugilistic [this Dear Reader is where she needed to hug and thank her parents she grew from baby to adult in safe world if she reached college age and need to learn how the basics of "fight or flight work], Amazonian attitude towards reality is what I'm trying to project. What I don't like about contemporary feminism is all of the energy devoted to protecting the bourgeoise girl [🤳 🙄 because the working classes and the girls in poor areas just loooove a good knock down street fight]. The white upper middle class bourgeoise girl who wants the world to be like her living room [ yep a space where a baby should be safe and a girl should be safe, see Dear Reader why she needs to hug people?].
She's been protected [see this is youth (one hopes😬) and a happy childhood projecting] by her parents, she's protected by her university, and she wants to go into the world dressed exactly as she wants [true (but dont scare the horses applies🤞), and babies dont get to pick their babygrow], she doesn't want - she doesn't even imagine the danger of the world [very true statement for babies]. She has not been taught the dangers of the world [funny thing some teach their girls and boys that men have risk factors what women dont have🤨, but her family sent her off to the world out there of the primitive beasts with not even her wits as a defence 👀]. She expected the entire world to be reduced to the bourgeoise protections [ to prevent the "Not just rape her, but kill her." happening is in her opinion too high a bar? ] that she does not realise are her privileged entitlement [yep she went there]. She is arrogant [saying no to : "Not just rape her, but kill her"] and she has communicated her arrogance to feminism [ 👀 🚩bourgeoise girl when she was still a baby learning to roll over was streets ahead of the author]."

So OP whats your N+1 ?

Aaaaan we are off

The claim that some random group of men are not the same as any other random group of men because the OP will refuse to look at the UK prison polulation and its official data around sex offenders

Why should the solution to male on male violence in the UK prison system be to place men into the womens system?

Another anomaly in the statistics is that while 96% of the cisgender prison population is male and 4% female, the trans prison population is 84% trans women and 16% trans men.

Where is data actually sourced from?

"Preventing men from accessing single sex spaces for women doesn't restrict women's freedom in the slightest. Women are free to come and go from these spaces as they see fit. The spaces serve only to enhance our freedom, as we may otherwise, in some circumstances choose to self exclude from activity due to the presence of men. The only restriction on freedom arising from womens SS spaces is on the men who wish to access them. If you want to argue that men shouldn't have their freedom to access spaces they have no need to be restricted, in order to protect women, then, go at it. But that's a male rights argument, not a feminist one. Frankly this line of argument is one of the biggest stretches I've come across in the whole debate. Desperate times."

I'm not suggesting men have access to women's spaces, rather trans women. As already mentioned upthread the problem is the trans moral panic has limited CIS women freedoms by those who harass women in public bathrooms via 'transvestigations' targeting any woman who doesn't appear 'feminine' enough. Women don't benefit from a culture that obsessively scrutinises their presentation…just like we don't when men claim women 'are asking for it' because of our attire.

I actually enjoy listening to Camille and think she has some very interesting points. We take for granted the freedoms we enjoy all too often and take a stance of women vs men, instead of being thankful that our particular society offers us many freedoms and protections that are taken for granted. I wouldn't consider myself a feminist per se as I've always appreciated that it's the men in our society that are responsible for our protections and rights and freedoms, but that's another topic I guess.

Are you arguing that women only spaces are detrimental to women, because safety restricts freedom, and so are a bad thing?
Or that women only spaces are fine and necessary for safety, provided that TW are included in them too, because their need to be safe from men is even greater?
Because you seem to be veering between the two contradictory stances.

The social benefit of men choosing to not transgress into womens spaces is it would remove any need that women have safeguard womens spaces. Untill such men choose to not transgress women will continue to need to safeguard.

Calling a sub-class of men by a "special" name is neither "here nor there" when men choose to transgress they choose to force women to safeguard.

Rape remains the responsibility of the rapist. Punishment remains the responsibility of the criminal justice system.

I don't get the analogy, no. 1950/60s was more about moral behaviour and stopping girls being sluts with the curfew rather than protection from rape. Fail to see how that has anything to do with women only spaces.

Wouldn't happen if men were never allowed into women's private spaces in the first place.

I am just waiting for the OP to claim sexual offences against women only happen when women are alone.😬

Are you arguing that women only spaces are detrimental to women, because safety restricts freedom, and so are a bad thing?
Or that women only spaces are fine and necessary for safety, provided that TW are included in them too, because their need to be safe from men is even greater?
Because you seem to be veering between the two contradictory stances.

Following on from Paglia's comments, I think safetyism is necessary but can go too far. I agree private spaces for females are necessary where actual risk is probable so men shouldn’t be included but trans women aren't a risk to women as the data shows so should be for their safety from men. Its also problematic to exclude transwomen because its created a culture of scrutiny on women in general. Who is sufficiently 'feminine' isn't deemed a risk. See where this is going?

I'm not suggesting men have access to women's spaces, rather trans women.

a 'trans woman' is a man - the only qualification needed to be able to call yourself a trans woman is to be born a man - and as we know that sex is immutable, they will still be a man.

As already mentioned upthread the problem is the trans moral panic has limited CIS women freedoms by those who harass women in public bathrooms via 'transvestigations' targeting any woman who doesn't appear 'feminine' enough. Women don't benefit from a culture that obsessively scrutinises their presentation…just like we don't when men claim women 'are asking for it' because of our attire.

This is still nonsense - you don't remove violence / oppression by saying let's normalise it by letting men into women's spaces - you remove it by keeping men out of women's spaces

"I actually enjoy listening to Camille and think she has some very interesting points. We take for granted the freedoms we enjoy all too often and take a stance of women vs men, instead of being thankful that our particular society offers us many freedoms and protections that are taken for granted. I wouldn't consider myself a feminist per se as I've always appreciated that it's the men in our society that are responsible for our protections and rights and freedoms, but that's another topic I guess."

Yes me too. She's very insightful & has opened my eyes to a more productive way of building trust with the sexes.

...so men shouldn’t be included but trans women aren't a risk to women as the data shows...

for clarity:

• if men shouldn't be included - nor should 'trans women' as a trans woman is a man.
• there is the same % risk to women from 'trans women' as there is from the general male population - not surprising because 'trans women' are men.
• allowing men to pretend to be women and access women's spaces normalises men in women's spaces and makes it 1,000x easier for those with nefarious ulterior motives to have access to their victims...
• putting men into a woman's space makes it mixed sex - by definition it can no longer be a women's space if 'trans women' are allowed in as 'trans women' are men.

for clarity:

• if men shouldn't be included - nor should 'trans women' as a trans woman is a man.
• there is the same % risk to women from 'trans women' as there is from the general male population - not surprising because 'trans women' are men.
• allowing men to pretend to be women and access women's spaces normalises men in women's spaces and makes it 1,000x easier for those with nefarious ulterior motives to have access to their victims...
• putting men into a woman's space makes it mixed sex - by definition it can no longer be a women's space if 'trans women' are allowed in as 'trans women' are men.

False & the data is clear upthread.