"Give Us The Freedom To Risk Rape"

[Howseitgoin]

Famed feminist Camille Paglia's interesting views on women's freedoms:

"Yes this is probably the most controversial area that I have written about.
From the start, when I became known in the early 1990s, this has been, my views on this subject have been highly inflammatory.

And I am coming to the subject from the point of view of a 1960s women, who, as a student, when I arrived as a freshman, my first year in 1964, the college, rebelled against the strict surveillance by the college administration of the lives of the women students.

This was the period that was called 'in loco parentis', that is, 'in place of the parents'. The college administrations felt that they had the obligation to supervise, to monitor, and protect the women students as they did not the male students.

Hence we had all girl dormitories and all male dormitories. The men could come and go at any hour of the day or night. We women had to sign in at 11 o'clock at night, so that the authorities of the college knew where. And we said, my generation rebelled, and called for an end to this practice. And they said, the world is dangerous, we have an obligation to protect you against rape. And what we said was 'give us the freedom to risk rape. That is true freedom'. That is what the sexual revolution gave to women.

Now, what will women do with the freedom? Feminism should have taken my view and said that 'now, you are an equal of a man and you must protect yourself as a man would. You must see the world as dangerous as a man would.' You must be as defensive and hyper-aware of your surroundings as a man would. Because men too are attacked for all kinds of things. Men too are the victims of crime and so on.

Instead, we've had this process of women calling for protections, a new paternalism, from the government and now from the college administrations again. They want to draw the parent figures back into their sex lives. This to me, is a major major fault of contemporary feminism. There are great responsibilities that come with freedom. And one of them is that you must take responsibility for your own defense."

Seems particularly relevant in terms of today's demand for 'women's private spaces'

Thoughts?

If she can’t tell the difference between women students being curfewed versus women having our own public loos, changing rooms etc she’s nothing like as clever as she thinks she is.

That stuff about clothes might have some relevance if there were any relationship between what women wear and sexual attacks on them, but there is none. There is however a relationship between what women wear and post-attack male justification of it to each other. It makes me wonder what on earth Paglia’s experience of life actually is.

What is that art piece exhibiting clothes worn by survivors of rape? That was a superb piece of art. I wonder if Paglia has written about it.

How do you feel about a culture that demonises men as predators & abusers to the point where they are 'afraid' of women?
I feel that men as a sex class need to stop being predators or abusers. Or punish those that are predators or abusers sufficiently instead of letting them walk free.
This is a man made problem. Literally.

I agree much of the ownership of their demonisation is upon them & they need to take responsibility but as we have see in recent years the back lash of excessive demonisation hasn't improved the situation in fact its made it significantly worse in that it's effectively made misogyny more normalised. The thing with playing identity politics, everyone starts playing & the initial problem gets worse.

You called us "cookers" which is Australian slang for conspiracy theorists. You're not here to argue for women's freedom you are here to argue for men's freedom.

Ooo clothing

Now do a 0 - 3 month babygrow.

How would that babygrow fit into your activism?

Your comparison is nonsense…
Paglia argued against being locked down, arguing for choice even if there was risk…
you are clearly taking that and trying to equate it to men demanding to be allowed to add risk to women’s lives by invading their spaces…
the first argues for female autonomy
the second argues against it
to imply that one supports the other is complete tosh!

It's not really, there's often unintended consequences to safteyism where the people your'e trying to protect end up worse off as has been evidenced by CIS women being harassed for not being sufficiently feminine in public bathrooms.

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

"If she can’t tell the difference between women students being curfewed versus women having our own public loos, changing rooms etc she’s nothing like as clever as she thinks she is."

CIS women being harassed in public bathrooms for not being sufficiently 'feminine' beg to differ.

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

omg just say ‘men’s freedom to use women-only spaces is more important than women’s right not to be raped’ and go ffs

It was never about “protecting women from rape”; it was about controlling women’s behaviour and their sexuality, much as anti-abortion laws seek to control this. If anyone really wanted to protect women from rape, they’d police the males, not the women

Entirely missing my point

Bathrooms again. Again, we don’t have public bathrooms in the UK any more. Words do matter.

So apparently we should use heels, which if we wear men will assume we’re sexually available, as weapons if they try to rape us, because rape is apparently just what men do if they receive any ‘sexual signal’, ie it’s always a response to what the rape victim does. And this is fine and totally plausible, because men in heels can successfully batter other men with heels (can they? Outside a movie?) Obviously a 5’3” woman in bare feet will be able to knock any man about, and any suggestion that this is physically implausible is pandering protectionism.

But being asked if we’re in the right toilet is ‘harassment’. Having toilets that are separated for men and women is ‘safetyism’. Privacy is ‘bourgeois’. Looking after each other is ‘chaperonage’.

What a funny world you do live in. I’m off to my job now, where what I say matters and I’m accountable for it.

Males transgress into spaces that they should not be
a) womens bodies in public spaces
b) toilets

Other women carry out safety checks to see if a male is transgressing..

You arguing that women who carry out safety checks are doing something wrong and leveraging that into males should be allowed to transgress anywhere they want toHow many additional women and girls being attacked or harmed in anyway in female single sex spaces are acceptable to you before we can expect to exclude ALL male people above the age of 8 years old?

Ooops I see I got deleted 🤷‍♀️

I guess someone did not like something in the post
The main question is

Dear reader whats your N+1

.How many additional women and girls being attacked or harmed in anyway in female single sex spaces are acceptable to you before we can expect to exclude ALL male people above the age of 8 years old?

Or we change the world and stop the abuse?

I am amazed that as a feminist you think the solution is to act like a man. How about men are raised to act like how women are raised?

Yes, we need government intervention to stop the abuse of women, just like we need government intervention to stop the abuse of children. Your comments seem to be lets throw all safeguarding out the window because you see safeguarding as belittling and restricting. But safeguarding is life saving so I am not willing to risk my life and others because you don't like any government interventions.

"Women students must live in all female dormitories and must observe an 11pm curfew" is paternalistic sexism.

"Female students may, if they choose, opt to live in an all-female dorm where no males are allowed after 11pm" is liberation, giving women the right to have a space where we don't have to be constantly hyper-vigilant for the predators that we know exist. Nor does the existence of such spaces label all males as predators - no male gets to label himself as "not actually a risk for being a potential predator" though.

If we need to utilise the structures of the state to enforce our right to choose to create and enforce those all female spaces then we will do so. Women are not forced into all-female spaces, it is good for mixed-sex options to exist too and women who don't value all-female spaces can use those, not force the female spaces to become mixed.

Exactly.

I think that really it should be argued that the ones committing the violent crimes against both men and women ( aka men) need to have their freedom restricted and be properly punished when they do commit violent crime whatever the sex of their victim.

Women are not a homogenous group and we all havd different levels of acceptable risk.

Yes me too. Twice.

Someone’s a bit touchy.

"Or we change the world and stop the abuse?
I am amazed that as a feminist you think the solution is to act like a man. How about men are raised to act like how women are raised?
Yes, we need government intervention to stop the abuse of women, just like we need government intervention to stop the abuse of children. Your comments seem to be lets throw all safeguarding out the window because you see safeguarding as belittling and restricting. But safeguarding is life saving so I am not willing to risk my life and others because you don't like any government interventions."

Um, Im not advocating for no laws against sexual violence. I'd be interested to know what you think would be other reasonable interventions we could enforce in society that wouldn't restrict women any further.

Oh it’s yet more blahblahblah…so men can be women.

Give it up OP, we can see you and all the others who try this tiresome approach that’s been done to death here.

"I think that really it should be argued that the ones committing the violent crimes against both men and women ( aka men) need to have their freedom restricted and be properly punished when they do commit violent crime whatever the sex of their victim.
Women are not a homogenous group and we all havd different levels of acceptable risk."

Good point. Yep there's certainly something to be said for enforcing laws that appears to be wanting given most sexual assaults & rapes are not reported. That there's been a backlash by women certainly has its roots in not being taken seriously.

There really is some nonsense posted on here at times!

your example does not excuse the premise that you believe that men should choose how and when women take risk.

if there is an issue with women (cis doesn’t exist!) having accusations made against them - that is 100% the fault of men demanding to be in female spaces… remove men completely and utterly - back to how it used to be and then all that will be left will be women in women’s spaces so everyone will know that they will be women and no false accusations will be made… issue solved…

to even suggest that men should be entitled to be in women’s spaces to normalise it so that there are no false accusations is to say let’s encourage violence and rape against women to normalise it and then there will be no issue as it will simply be the norm…. That is a suggestion so horrendous that it demeans women totally and removes any sense of autonomy or choice from women…

no is a simple word
no to men in women’s spaces
no to men pretending to be women
no to twisted logic promoting misogynistic attitudes in the name of ‘protecting’ women

I'll just settle in for another thread of the OPs insults, let's hope the OP has better material this time.

How do you feel about a culture that demonises men as predators & abusers to the point where they are 'afraid' of women? Not saying there shouldn’t be an understanding that any criminal actions are socially unacceptable & will be met with serious consequences but it kind of defeats the point of women's freedom to have the opposite sex on egg shells to the point they fear being around us.

Men fearing being around women?

What are they afraid of exactly?