"Give Us The Freedom To Risk Rape"

[Howseitgoin]

Famed feminist Camille Paglia's interesting views on women's freedoms:

"Yes this is probably the most controversial area that I have written about.
From the start, when I became known in the early 1990s, this has been, my views on this subject have been highly inflammatory.

And I am coming to the subject from the point of view of a 1960s women, who, as a student, when I arrived as a freshman, my first year in 1964, the college, rebelled against the strict surveillance by the college administration of the lives of the women students.

This was the period that was called 'in loco parentis', that is, 'in place of the parents'. The college administrations felt that they had the obligation to supervise, to monitor, and protect the women students as they did not the male students.

Hence we had all girl dormitories and all male dormitories. The men could come and go at any hour of the day or night. We women had to sign in at 11 o'clock at night, so that the authorities of the college knew where. And we said, my generation rebelled, and called for an end to this practice. And they said, the world is dangerous, we have an obligation to protect you against rape. And what we said was 'give us the freedom to risk rape. That is true freedom'. That is what the sexual revolution gave to women.

Now, what will women do with the freedom? Feminism should have taken my view and said that 'now, you are an equal of a man and you must protect yourself as a man would. You must see the world as dangerous as a man would.' You must be as defensive and hyper-aware of your surroundings as a man would. Because men too are attacked for all kinds of things. Men too are the victims of crime and so on.

Instead, we've had this process of women calling for protections, a new paternalism, from the government and now from the college administrations again. They want to draw the parent figures back into their sex lives. This to me, is a major major fault of contemporary feminism. There are great responsibilities that come with freedom. And one of them is that you must take responsibility for your own defense."

Seems particularly relevant in terms of today's demand for 'women's private spaces'

Thoughts?

'"Women students must live in all female dormitories and must observe an 11pm curfew" is paternalistic sexism.
"Female students may, if they choose, opt to live in an all-female dorm where no males are allowed after 11pm" is liberation, giving women the right to have a space where we don't have to be constantly hyper-vigilant for the predators that we know exist. Nor does the existence of such spaces label all males as predators - no male gets to label himself as "not actually a risk for being a potential predator" though.
If we need to utilise the structures of the state to enforce our right to choose to create and enforce those all female spaces then we will do so. Women are not forced into all-female spaces, it is good for mixed-sex options to exist too and women who don't value all-female spaces can use those, not force the female spaces to become mixed."

So if your standard is based on risk assessment which certainly is fair given our whole justice system is predicated on preventing harm, would you be ok with trans women being permitted to female spaces given they statistically don't appear to pose a risk to women but are at a significantly higher risk in mens spaces?

'"Women students must live in all female dormitories and must observe an 11pm curfew" is paternalistic sexism.
"Female students may, if they choose, opt to live in an all-female dorm where no males are allowed after 11pm" is liberation, giving women the right to have a space where we don't have to be constantly hyper-vigilant for the predators that we know exist. Nor does the existence of such spaces label all males as predators - no male gets to label himself as "not actually a risk for being a potential predator" though.
If we need to utilise the structures of the state to enforce our right to choose to create and enforce those all female spaces then we will do so. Women are not forced into all-female spaces, it is good for mixed-sex options to exist too and women who don't value all-female spaces can use those, not force the female spaces to become mixed."

So if your standard is based on risk assessment which certainly is fair given our whole justice system is predicated on preventing harm, would you be ok with trans women being permitted to female spaces given they statistically don't appear to pose a risk to women but are at a significantly higher risk in mens spaces?

How do you feel about a culture that demonises men as predators & abusers to the point where they are 'afraid' of women? Not saying there shouldn’t be an understanding that any criminal actions are socially unacceptable & will be met with serious consequences but it kind of defeats the point of women's freedom to have the opposite sex on egg shells to the point they fear being around us.
Men fearing being around women?
What are they afraid of exactly?

My understanding is they fear being taken the wrong way & being falsely accused of wrong doing.

You must see the world as dangerous as a man would.' You must be as defensive and hyper-aware of your surroundings as a man would.

Not particularly helpful. Perhaps even actively harmful.

Men aren't as defensive or hyper-aware of their surroundings as women are, because they are less vulnerable.

Men may be more likely to be attacked, but they are less likely to be raped by their attacker. WIth thinner bones, women are physically more vulnerable - a 'mild' attack that might only bruise a man, could kill a woman. With their greater size and strength, men are more confident of their ability to fight back or escape successfully. And the attackers in all cases are almost invariably men.

And while it's perfectly acceptable to want to take the chance yourself to risk being raped, she has no right to impose that risk upon other women. She cannot give another woman's consent.

You must see the world as dangerous as a man would.' You must be as defensive and hyper-aware of your surroundings as a man would.
Not particularly helpful. Perhaps even actively harmful.
Men aren't as defensive or hyper-aware of their surroundings as women are, because they are less vulnerable.
Men may be more likely to be attacked, but they are less likely to be raped by their attacker. WIth thinner bones, women are physically more vulnerable - a 'mild' attack that might only bruise a man, could kill a woman. With their greater size and strength, men are more confident of their ability to fight back or escape successfully. And the attackers in all cases are almost invariably men.
And while it's perfectly acceptable to want to take the chance yourself to risk being raped, she has no right to impose that risk upon other women. She cannot give another woman's consent.

I suspect Paglia's point is you can't get freedom without the trade off of extra risk A kind of 'you can't have it both ways'. For all of us despite the level of potential damage its risky to walk down an isolated ally in a dodgy part of town late at night so self responsibility comes into play for minimising those risks. The otherwise alternative of living in a police state isn't better.

Is it not overall a good thing when men's behaviour is constrained or moderated by the fear of a bright light being shone on it? Shame can be excessive, but it is a big factor in encouraging men to rein in our rampant sexual interests, resulting in less damaging behaviour.

I do not feel demonised, even in a place like this where a few women sometimes make quite extreme statements, implying for example that marrying a man necessarily opens up the prospect of being raped. This is because there is some truth in it - too many men think they have a right to whatever they want. It is not a normal response to be 'afraid' of women and 'on egg shells to the point they fear being around us'.

More inaccuracies…

men claiming to be women don’t lose their statistical propensity to violence against women

there is a pattern of men who have been violent subsequently using self-ID to pretend to be women

there are no stats showing that a man pretending to be a woman is less safe in male spaces…

so your logic falls to pieces
even if it hadn’t - at what point are you going to accept that men do not have the right to tell women that they can’t have women only spaces…?! This isn’t about ‘trans-women’ being women together with other women in a women’s only space, it is about men demanding that they have the right to be in women’s spaces, thus making them mixed sex and removing women only spaces - men do not have that right..

Oh gosh. How awful for the poor souls.

Is it not overall a good thing when men's behaviour is constrained or moderated by the fear of a bright light being shone on it? Shame can be excessive, but it is a big factor in encouraging men to rein in our rampant sexual interests, resulting in less damaging behaviour.
I do not feel demonised, even in a place like this where a few women sometimes make quite extreme statements, implying for example that marrying a man necessarily opens up the prospect of being raped. This is because there is some truth in it - too many men think they have a right to whatever they want. It is not a normal response to be 'afraid' of women and 'on egg shells to the point they fear being around us'.

Well said but as long but 'shaming' works both ways. Are women prepared to be shamed again tho? Given the history of shaming women its understandable that they react ferociously at the intimation of shame. So unless its a both ways understanding shaming is unlikely productive outcome. Identity politics tends to make problems greater than solve them which we have already seen effectively ushering in a an era of normalised public misogyny. I prefer a middle way where we can talk about issues without invoking shame rather communal social responsibility.

Ah yes, that reminds me that I wanted to ask @Howseitgoin what he meant by "reptilian brains" but the thread was full. Is this some meaningful term that has passed me by, or is the OP a conspiracy theorist nutter?

"More inaccuracies…
men claiming to be women don’t lose their statistical propensity to violence against women
there is a pattern of men who have been violent subsequently using self-ID to pretend to be women
there are no stats showing that a man pretending to be a woman is less safe in male spaces…
so your logic falls to pieces
even if it hadn’t - at what point are you going to accept that men do not have the right to tell women that they can’t have women only spaces…?! This isn’t about ‘trans-women’ being women together with other women in a women’s only space, it is about men demanding that they have the right to be in women’s spaces, thus making them mixed sex and removing women only spaces - men do not have that right.."

False.

https://getplume.co/blog/trans-fact-or-fiction-bathroom-bans-keep-us-safe/

Treat us as equals where sex doesn’t matter and respect our sex where it does

It’s not bloody hard is it ?or does the two part statement class as multitasking

How do you feel about a culture that demonises men as predators & abusers to the point where they are 'afraid' of women?

Uh huh
And yet they're still managing to abuse us in massive numbers despite being terrified of us. They must be awfully brave, the poor souls.

Single sex spaces and services, enforced by the government, would be an excellent start. I live in a country where sex has been removed from the constitution by replacing not the word, but the definition. In practice it means womens freedom of movement, access to society and even education is being restricted by the lack of single sex spaces. But the government refuses to monitor this and just scratches their head wondering why there is an increase in teenage girls no longer playing team sports or why certain religious and ethnic girls are dropping out of further education.

An activist blog is not evidence. The UK ministry of justice reported figures to parliament based on criminal convictions demonstrating that transwomen had a significantly higher rate of sexual offending than non-trans males (I'm sure one of the better informed women on here will have the link).

I don’t know who the woman you quote is and I don’t care what she thinks, women need and want separate single sex spaces for times they are undressing or otherwise vulnerable but not at other times and no amount of word salad or ‘identifying’ as something you’re not will change that.

"An activist blog is not evidence. The UK ministry of justice reported figures to parliament based on criminal convictions demonstrating that transwomen had a significantly higher rate of sexual offending than non-trans males (I'm sure one of the better informed women on here will have the link)."

The blog has links to research.

Why don’t you share the actual research then and your summary of each paper?

otherwise “I have made an unjustified claim and expect everyone else to do all the leg work and analysis “

Hilarious - so your evidence is an American blog article from a transgender affirming clinic - apart from its distinct lack of actual evidence - where do you think its bias might sit?!

At what point are you going to accept that a woman who has been previously raped or sexually assaulted might value women's spaces where there is no chance of having a man wandering in while she is getting changed / feeling more vulnerable?

Where is the evidence that men who pretend to be women are more vulnerable in men's spaces? a transgender clinic's blog reporting a survey of 'trans' people who 'feel' threatened is hardly rigorous science! I have used the gents and male changing spaces for over 50 years and never seen any evidence of harassment or threats against any other users let alone against men pretending to be women - and if they do feel threatened when they walk into a male space wearing female clothes and trying to look like a woman - there is a simple solution in their control - they are men - don't confuse the issue! a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and no-one will give them a second glance... If they have had surgery (the very small % minority) then they can simply use a cubicle - no blokes look at other blokes bits anyway! And blokes don't have the same potential issues of women who might need to deal with heavy periods etc. where they also need to do so in the communal area of the sinks...

It is a totally non-issue dreamed up to create an excuse to oppress women - really pretty obvious!

Why would men have to fear being around us? All they would have to do to protect themselves is not be rapey bastards.
Maybe if we put the onus on men to be monitored, tagged and curfewed, and instead of making a rape victim prove that they didn't consent we made the rapist prove they did we could start to build a truly fair society.
Until a time comes when their are zero inappropriate or predatory men and even after women will need and want single sex spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy and safety.
Women should have the freedoms that men do and still have the right to dignity, privacy and safety when we are undressed, using the toilet's or when in hospital or jail and we also deserve fairness in sports. Now legally with the supreme court decision we have that and the current battle is to enforce the rules of law.
@Howseitgoin you can try and twist and manipulate the thoughts and ponderings of 1 American woman who wrote in the 90s about her experience of 1 college campus in 60s America to try and say women are wrong to want privacy, dignity and safety aswell as freedom, you can claim that freedom and safety are incompatible all you like but we know that your wrong. We can all see that your argument is if we want freedom we must give up not only all vestige of safety but our dignity and privacy too, we should just accept the risk of letting men in our single sex spaces in the name of freedom.
I've a question for you what about our freedom to say no to men our freedom to demand privacy and dignity or our freedom to say what are acceptable risks and what are unacceptable and to choose for ourselves what safeguards to put in place to ameliorate those risks.

"Why don’t you share the actual research then and your summary of each paper?
otherwise “I have made an unjustified claim and expect everyone else to do all the leg work and analysis “

Here are summaries & links.

https://translucent.org.uk/transgender-people-crime-and-prisons/

No. Having male people in an all-female space would make it mixed-sex. A male person saying "I am not a risk to you" is not any reason to make an exception for them for entry to an all-female space. There is no category of male people who can be exceptions. This is not "demonising" - we know that the vast majority of male people are not predatory. It's ridiculous to say that male people can self-define as "not a risk" - if such a loophole exists, of course predators will use it.

Your assertion that "they statistically don't appear to pose a risk to women" is not proven. I think the fact that transwomen are overrepresented in the prison population compared to the general population could indicate the opposite, though you'd have to correct for other factors to be sure - nevertheless there's no objective criteria by which women can assess an unknown male's specific risk, there's no objective criteria by which any one human can confirm or deny the truth or otherwise of another human's self-description of their gender, and when there are rational and proportional reasons for creating an all-female space, those reasons only hold up as self-consistent if it's on the basis of sex, not gender.

If they are "are at a significantly higher risk in mens spaces" the problem there is other men. It's not for women to sacrifice their needs to make up for men's shortcomings. Until such time as the transphobia and violence in men that puts transwomen at risk is solved, then safe spaces that are for transwomen only would be an entirely reasonable provision where demand is sufficient. They cannot take the all-female spaces from us. There should always be unisex spaces too when the number of transwomen wanting an alternative to using the correct facilities for their sex is insufficient for there to be a dedicated transwomen option. Being female is not a membership that is in anyone's power to agree or deny.

Hilarious - so your evidence is an American blog article from a transgender affirming clinic - apart from its distinct lack of actual evidence - where do you think its bias might sit?!
At what point are you going to accept that a woman who has been previously raped or sexually assaulted might value women's spaces where there is no chance of having a man wandering in while she is getting changed / feeling more vulnerable?
Where is the evidence that men who pretend to be women are more vulnerable in men's spaces? a transgender clinic's blog reporting a survey of 'trans' people who 'feel' threatened is hardly rigorous science! I have used the gents and male changing spaces for over 50 years and never seen any evidence of harassment or threats against any other users let alone against men pretending to be women - and if they do feel threatened when they walk into a male space wearing female clothes and trying to look like a woman - there is a simple solution in their control - they are men - don't confuse the issue! a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and no-one will give them a second glance... If they have had surgery (the very small % minority) then they can simply use a cubicle - no blokes look at other blokes bits anyway! And blokes don't have the same potential issues of women who might need to deal with heavy periods etc. where they also need to do so in the communal area of the sinks...
It is a totally non-issue dreamed up to create an excuse to oppress women - really pretty obvious!

Here are summaries & linked the research.
https://translucent.org.uk/transgender-people-crime-and-prisons/

"Your assertion that "they statistically don't appear to pose a risk to women" is not proven."

Here are summaries & linked the research.
https://translucent.org.uk/transgender-people-crime-and-prisons/

Yes, because an activist blog would have no reason to cherry pick its sources if evidence, would it?

Aside from that, relying on reporting of unverifiable incidents is statistically unsound. We know in the UK that women hugely under report incidents of sexual harassment and assault, because they don't believe anything will be done. I'm sure every woman here has done it. On the other hand, trans activists label everything as "literal violence", eg calling a man a man, looking at them wrong, putting up gender critical stickers, so I'd prefer to believe the prison stats reported by a government body than the self-reported perceptions of a demographic that takes offence at reality.