Non-binary - what's that all about?

[Melody21]

My DD (at uni) is working on a project with a young woman who identifies as non-binary. She (non-binary person) has a female name, long hair, looks female. Daughter tries dutifully to "they/them" her but it's clearly an effort and sounds very unnatural. What's the point of it all?

Genuinely curious, I'm not being snarky (well, maybe a bit). Since I can't ask this person directly, can anyone explain it to me? If it's about not fitting gender stereotypes, aren't we all a bit non-binary?

Yes we are.

In ye olden days non-binary people were called 'normal' (if they just wanted to reject gender stereotypes) or 'attention seeking' (if they did so while making a big song and dance over it). The song and dance have become more popular in recent years, hence the need to change others' language.

If I'm being charitable I'd say it's people who don't feel they fit in with "gender norms", e.g. women being feminine, wearing dresses/make-up/heels etc. Which is a crock of bollocks because no-one should have to fit in with "gender norms", women have been trying to break out of them for centuries, and the idea of being "non-binary" is incredibly regressive because it reinforces those norms.

If I'm being less charitable I'd say it's performative specialness for those privileged enough to be able to indulge themselves with luxury beliefs. So, still a crock of bollocks!

Believing that you are non-binary is philosophical belief about your own identity. Just like with all transgender identity beliefs, there are no biological or neurological markers that allow a person to be categorised as being transgender.

The philosophical belief is that apparently, a person 'understands' themselves as being 'non-binary' (or as the opposite sex for instance when someone claims to be the opposite sex). We have been told on threads that it doesn't matter at all that the 'understanding' has no grounding in material reality, a person simply having that understanding makes their claim to be treated as if their identity is materially real means that they must be treated that way. Otherwise, that person doesn't exist.

However, in all of this OP, those demanding that a belief that leads to the miscategorisation of someone into the opposite sex or into having no sex class at all, can never answer why this group of people's philosophical belief with no materially real basis should ever be treated as if it is materially real by society. Particularly through language and policy, when other philosophical beliefs that are not based in material reality are not.

No one in society should be expected to act as if they believe someone else's belief when they don't. Even more so when it is an identity that lacks any materially real substance. This also means, that people should not be emotionally manipulated, or coerced in any way, into changing the conventions of the English language to support someone else's philosophical belief.

"If it's about not fitting gender stereotypes, aren't we all a bit non-binary?"

Likely.

But to be non-binary, you have to believe that you have a gender identity. And I suspect that very few people believe that they have a gender identity. Which is the reason that people say that 'cis' is not a neutral term at all, despite many activists declaring it is harmless.

The use of 'cis' actively forces people into the category of believing in an ideological point of view where people have 'gender identities'.

This and genderfluid always confuse me, both seem to be about not conforming to one gender stereotype. But I think they simply put wayyyy too much thought into gender and what it all means. I am not LGBT, I am a regular woman but I don't wake up in the morning and thinking about the fact that I am a woman or plan my day around it, I just wake up and start my day? Thinking about my sex and gender doesn't even cross my mind. Some days I feel like I wearing a dress and making my hair and make up look nice and other days I just feel like tying my hair back and wearing jeans a comfy tshirt. Not because I identify as a particular gender on either day but because I think thats a normal human thing to do (and because sometimes I can't be bothered!). I just think dress girly or don't, dress manly or don't, but why does it have to have a label or identity you

I got shouted at in Greggs the other day by a member of staff that was clearly female. Like you said, female name on her badge etc….another member of staff asked if I was ok and I replied “yes thank you, that lady is serving me” well she turned and shot me the most filthiest of looks and told me I shouldn’t assume anyone’s gender and she identifies as they/them. I replied with well I’m sorry but you clearly are a female and was born a female so I will assume you are one. I left my latte and steak bake and left the store.

Greggs seems to be a particular place for the blue-haired pronoun brigade. I was served in one near me by a woman who had a female face, a female figure, a female voice and a female way of moving…and a name badge that said her name was Dave* and her pronouns were he/him.

Just serve me my coffee please, I don’t need the ideology.

*Not the actual name, but male nonetheless.

This is my thoughts. Attention seeking twaddle.

Aah - just wrote a long reply and it disappeared!

Thanks for replies. Struggling to get my head around the idea of a person who genuinely feels (assuming they do) that they're in some way neither male nor female. I mean, you're obviously a woman, how can you expect others to pretend otherwise.

Also, the audacity of the woman in Greggs!!

Also it's just linguistically really annoying (and confusing) to hear plural pronouns for a singular person!

Attention seeking nonsense. My friend's daughter suddenly says she's non-binary because she's 'not like most women'. Utter tosh. She's exactly like billions of other women. And saying you're non-binary isn't going to stop your periods is it?

It is all performative, self centred bollox.

The ultimate "not like other girls" 😄

I find this so irritating. If I’m reading about someone and it suddenly starts talking about they and them, it takes me a minute of wondering who the others are, then I realise and invariably lose interest in anything they have to say.

You think non- binary is attention seeking well how about ‘trans non- binary?’ 🤪

It’s basically too much time on social media plus needing to feel special.

Unfortunately it also leads to medical interventions and cross sex hormones

Or: queer trans non binary man
Or: trans demi girl
Or: questioning asexual genderqueer

Or some such look at me! attention seeking bolleaux

And they all seem to have a flag 😭

How can they identify their tribe if they don’t have a flag?

Time was it was enough to be an individual with a personality, now one needs to identify as something. Just be, for fuck’s sake!

How can they identify their tribe if they don’t have a flag?

Time was it was enough to be an individual with a personality, now one needs to identify as something. Just be, for fuck’s sake!

Not everyone sees their sex/gender as an essential bit of their identity. For me it isn’t.
i find being addressed by my gender as awkward as being addressed by my ethnicity. Mrs Smith, White Person Smith, Atheist Smith, AB+ Smith. none of these are things i want to be referred to as.
It’s relevant for medical purposes, and that’s it.
I see myself as nonbinary (more agender), and i’ve used the easiest way to a gender neutral title - i’m Dr Smith.
Gender or sec are not concepts I care about in daily life, and i don’t want to be addressed by them.

Hope you hadn’t paid for your lunch!!

It's somebody who wants special attention for being a not-overly-feminine woman or not-overly-masculine man, instead of just doing their thing and getting on with life like the rest of us. 🙄

One of the people that I know as non-binary, couldn't be more male if they tried, and yes they are male.