Non-binary - what's that all about?

[Melody21]

My DD (at uni) is working on a project with a young woman who identifies as non-binary. She (non-binary person) has a female name, long hair, looks female. Daughter tries dutifully to "they/them" her but it's clearly an effort and sounds very unnatural. What's the point of it all?

Genuinely curious, I'm not being snarky (well, maybe a bit). Since I can't ask this person directly, can anyone explain it to me? If it's about not fitting gender stereotypes, aren't we all a bit non-binary?

@OldCrone on average - yes. But not everyone is average.
Women can have broad shoulders and small cup size. Men can have boobs (not that rare actually, but most try to hide them).
Not everyone with a bigger cup size wants to advertise them.
So yes, body types work - broad shoulders are different to cup size. There is a loose correlation to sex, but there are more differences within one sex than similarities

It all just seems to be some seriously muddled thinking.

I get how someone doesn't think their sex is important in everyday life (it generally isnt, apart from a few specific exceptions) and doesnt want to be defined by it.

But that doesnt mean that you dont actually have a sex! Having a sex, and being defined by it are two totally different things.

Everyone has a sex, even enbies.

Most people dont want to be defined by their sex either. Not wanting to be defined by your sex seems just so boringly normal.

I do think sex is more than medically relevant, it is physically relevant and we are physical beings. I also think that medical issues aren’t something that is barely ever an issue. That’s partly because I’m in my 50s, but even as a youngster I had some physical issues which were sex-related - tbh very few people don’t. I also work in stroke care so am particularly used to working with people who were apparently fit and well one day and then their physical and medical needs become overwhelmingly important the next.

That doesn’t mean I’m going to address a non-binary patient in a way they don’t want. It means I fear for people, particularly women, who have physical needs they are deliberately avoiding being addressed. The one that bothers me most is the smaller larynxes of women, ie the narrower airway, which is important in any surgical procedure or respiratory event. Unless your anaesthetist knows you are female, you are at significantly greater risk of really serious complications. And as I am not one of those who believes you can always tell, I wish we were in a world where your sex was allowed to be a known fact about you without apparently triggering some huge issue.

Totally!

I just dont get how you can live in this world as a female (ie be a woman), and not be reminded of your sex all the bloody time whether you want to or not.

Periods. Uncomfortable bras. Smear tests. The male gaze. Being talked over. Phones being just a bit too big to use comfortably (ditto most tools). Car seats not fitting right. Life jackets or other PPE not fitting right. Etc etc. The excellent book Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez details all the ways the world is designed around the physicality of men, not women.

If you are very tall, big woman, these things may not be immediately apparent, but you still are likely to (or will have had at some point) have periods, be perved on by men, etc. Announcing your enby status will not change any of these things one iota. Material reality doesnt care how you label it, it remains reality.

@PermanentTemporary my sex is in my medical records, just like my blood type, a hereditary medical condition and my ethnicity. I don’t mind a medical professional knowing or asking any of these if relevant.
I do mind people making it into something relevant outside of the medical context, because to me it isn’t.
My file says Dr Smith or Mx Smith. it also states my sex. Its all there for medical purposes.

Sex is relevant wherever we exist physically.

I am biological female, but see myself as enby/agender. i’m also barely 5ft . I work in a male dominated environment. I’m smaller than most of my colleagues (not all), and made that my strength. Yes, the world is made for tall people, but that goes across sex (average woman in the uk is 5ft 3, i’m quite a bit shorter than that!).
But i’m very comfy in economy class when travelling:)
i am not reminded of my sex daily. I’ve been perved on a handful of times in almost 50 years. Some of the aggressors were women, some men.
I have had smear tests (every few years) , not fun but also not a life changing experience.
I had periods in the past (monthly, obviously), didn’t like them, so menopause is amazing.
I am a parent - having a uterus was handy, but again not something that defines me. Being a parent does define me, giving birth was an inconvenience but not something that defines me.
I look after my body in a very factual way, and advocate for it, same as I do for my hereditary medical condition. It works for me.
With all of that i seem to have a better relationship with my body than most women - which i find interesting

So in what way do you believe that you're different from women who don't believe in the concept of gender identity?

You seem to believe in gender just so that you can reject it. Why not join all the women who think that the concept of gender is regressive bollocks?

I don’t see being female as an important part of my identity, the end. I don’t want to be addressed as White person Smith, AB+ Smith of Ms Smith. I’m not a girl friend, i don’t do white person’s night out or girl’s night out. etc
I have a body with specific organs. I look aftef it. Still not part of my identity.

Right, but you know who you’re talking about! The person listening doesn’t.

I have a they relative and find hearing about them really hard. Grammatically it is no longer clear who we’re talking about because they is often used as non specific someone else.

How is Johnny getting on with orchestra these days? Oh they don’t have orchestra after school anymore, they are hoping they can have piano lessons instead.
^^ That could refer to Johnny not bothering to do orchestra and wanting piano lessons, or it could mean ‘they’ no longer run orchestra and ‘they’ are trying to offer piano instead- so Johnny may be disappointed and have no interest in piano!

Being female is a factual part of your existence, not an "identity".

You can't opt out of being female if that's what you are.

I don't understand why you feel the need to proclaim an "identity" of enby rather than just be a woman (biological fact) without a gender identity, like most women posting here.

As for NB, well ok, but you are sexed. It’s disingenuous to try and pretend it doesn’t matter.

When you play that game with the flaps and pictures where you guess who’s on the opponent’s cards, or who am I, with the name on the headband, you can halve the options by working out male or female.

If I need to point someone out, using their sex is massively helpful and almost always unmistakable.

If I were referred to as a man I’d be irritated and eye rolling not because I’m offended at the mistake, but because I am glaringly obviously female with boobs and bum and averagely female in every way. Totally unmistakable. Anyone misgendering me simply hasn’t actually looked, which is rude.

There are no female coded activities, that’s just fashion and society. Knitting, sewing, cooking- all seen as female yet the best known proponents are male. So they really aren’t female activities at all.

There is nothing more to it than the body you arrived in and fashion.

in some report correspondence I have been referred to as “they” (it’s a report from the DWP) prior to the conversation I was not asked how I like to be addressed in person or statements… for the record it would be by name or my relationship status as Mrs… I am older so may be out touch… no hate I am just interested in thoughts on this 😊

exactly this. One of my aunts (aged 75) announced at Christmas that she was now non- binary and wished to be known as they/them. This from a woman at the coal face of 70s feminist activism. My father just said ‘ffs Gillian. You’ve had two kids. If you are confused about what sex that makes you then there is no hope.’ . They are still
not talking.

Basically, it is a load of attention seeking prats who need some sort of validation!

I am female, but some days I wear pants, no makeup. Other days I wear a dress, full make up and look like im taking on vogues run way.

I am female, it is in my DNA. Can't change it!

I think there are lots of gender non conforming men and women. Not conformity (refusing to fit prescribed social, cultural or legal roles etc) has driven change. To me NB seems very individualistic - I don’t fit so I’m stepping aside. Probably an easier route than trying to change things for everyone else.

So you’re a gender atheist like most of the other women on MN, but you want to be in the rainbow gang?

That seems to me to be an either incredibly privileged or very naive position.

If you think no one has ever made judgements about you or behaved in a certain way towards you because of your female biology or signalled whether or not your behaviour is sex appropriate then I feel confident saying you’re wrong. That doesn’t mean they should make judgements or change their behaviour, just that they do. If you think your biology hasn’t in anyway impacted choices you’ve made or how you’ve had to defend those choices, again I feel confident saying you’re wrong.

Some of this we need society to stop making assumptions about what women can and can’t do, but some of it society needs to change its approach due to our biological reality (see seatbelts, phone sizes, biomedical research and on and on).

Sorry they're not talking, but had to laugh at her announcement and his response!

Maybe I should announce I'm coming out as non-binary just to see my daughter's face... (What's a non-binary parent called?)

It’s a made-up load of cobblers, perfect for people who are looking for an interesting angle or who are devoid of personality. I’m sure I’d have been taken in by it (and would probably identity as such) if I was young now. I’d only we could go back to punks/skins/goths/soul boys and girls etc etc

Yes agree

So basically, the reality of sexed bodies is becoming unmentionable in refined society, at a time when pornography is rife, men's rights activism is on the up and rape has practically been decriminalised because nearly every offender gets away with it.
"Pretend it isn't there and nobody will think about it any more". The Victorians tried that approach, and it didn't work. It especially didn't work for women.

I don't know about any of that, I was just commenting in how the use of pronouns has changed.

Some of us can treat our female sex as irrelevant most of the time, because we are fortunate in our health and personal relationships, and because in our society the women who went before us fought against the odds for some semblance of equality with men.
Meanwhile women in some other societies, and less fortunate women in our own, still find that their sex is all too relevant, whether they like it or not. See for example the very distressing thread currently running on this board, about FGM.

They/them is not at all confusing!!