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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

some parallels

604 replies

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 23:10

This really isn’t the gotcha that the OP thinks:

”both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

If someone has never had any relevant experience as the sex they claim to be from, why should that person expect to be believed to be ‘of that sex’?

This is a dishonest point that the OP has tried to make from the first. As yet, I have not seen a relevant defence of their points. Sex is not the same in this instance as ‘culture’. Culture can be understood through different aspects of experience. The same is not true in any way for sex. You really either are one sex or the other. There is no way to change that sex and it will shape your interaction with society and yourself for the rest of your life.

Sex class is not analogous to culture. This point is a falsehood. It cannot pass a logical analysis.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 23:11

To Haulage and Tooting - If it's too infuriating, just wander on past the preaching and back to the market square where busker Beetle is busy doing an exquisite interpretative dance. I loved that post - it was weirdly (very weirdly), utterly beautiful...

Catiette · 16/08/2025 23:13

Beetle's busking is on Street Page 4, for anyone who missed it.

SionnachRuadh · 16/08/2025 23:18

MarieDeGournay · 16/08/2025 22:48

Interesting thread title!
Some parallels: Train tracks? Kerbs on opposite sides of a street? Two lines in the same plane that are at equal distance from each other and never meet?

I thought for a second it might have been a reference to an old Blondie album. Imagine my disappointment.

Enough4me · 16/08/2025 23:49

Jokers, like you OP, posting negatively about realists are missing the point.
People with dysphoria aren't getting support, such as talking therapies, to resolve the conflict of being a sex that they don't feel part of.
They need help to see that however they live, dress etc. they still do represent their sex. All men are men, all women are women.
People validating their mental illness should stop and join in with the realists.
No one validates people who are anorexic or schizophrenic because lying doesn't help people with disorders.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 16/08/2025 23:50

MarieDeGournay · 16/08/2025 22:48

Interesting thread title!
Some parallels: Train tracks? Kerbs on opposite sides of a street? Two lines in the same plane that are at equal distance from each other and never meet?

Two short planks?

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2025 23:53

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

No. We've been through this before.

Is xenophobia like transphobia? No. Because trans ideology asks you to believe that humans can change sex.

Newsflash: Humans aren't clownfish and they can't reproduce unless you have a biological male and a biological female. And you can't change sex.

If you are gender critical, you recognise this teeny tiny flaw in this stupid ideology.

ILikeDungs · 17/08/2025 00:04

Aww, has Man gone to bed?

Just wanted to point out that as a mammal he can't change sex so he should really get another hobby.

Sure, wear what you like and consort with whoever you like, just stop using women's spaces.

Then we're good.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2025 00:15

lcakethereforeIam · 16/08/2025 23:51

well what else do you expect to see driving a tank?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/08/2025 00:29

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:27

i think it's more likely they'd rather not walk into a room full of peeing drunk macho men, in the wardrobe of their choice. not that hard to understand when you think about that. but of course, you think that a trans man SHOULD walk into your toilet....hmmm, why?

I'd also rather not walk into a room full of peeing drunk macho men, even wearing a wardrobe, because I'm a man who is not very macho and doesn't get drunk.

Cheeseandtomato72 · 17/08/2025 00:49

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

Wow this is a whole new can of delusions from the deluded team.

xenophobia isn’t justified. Concern about men in women’s spaces is. 99% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men against women. Jesus Christ look at the prisoner stats of TIMs in the US and the U.K. over 50% have sex offences compared to the rest of general male population which are around 20% sex offences.

if you are female, wake up. If you are a TIM, you can put forward your mad arguments all you like, the days of you mad men running things are over

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/08/2025 01:01

roseyposey · 16/08/2025 19:49

Are you in the States? Nobody from Guatemala “migrates” to the UK “for financial stability”. Nothing else in your OP makes sense either.

Was about to post exactly this! Thank you.

summerbreeze10 · 17/08/2025 01:11

It would be really nice to encounter one who was able to properly articulate our arguments. The first rule of a proper discussion is to understand the opposing point of view, even if you disagree with it. I WANT to understand the objections to the GC position, other than just "my manly feelz trumps the biological reality of women".

I have never met a single Redditor who is able to properly articulate the Gender Critical viewpoint. I am always hopeful on these threads, and always disappointed.

BeLemonNow · 17/08/2025 01:13

Absolutely agree OP, people should not enter a place, notice these people don't hold the same views, not bother to understand them and condemn them as lesser people. Hang on a sec...

BeLemonNow · 17/08/2025 01:18

Also there's nothing immoral with someone legally migrating from Guatemala to the UK for (their?) economic stability.

Why are you comparing a legal migrant to someone looking up someone's skirts? Do you hate Guatemalans OP?

Mapletree1985 · 17/08/2025 04:03

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:00

thuscisntvabout sex though; it's about gender.

Single-sex spaces are about sex, not gender.

A man can perform any gender he likes, as long as he does it in spaces where men are allowed. But he can't perform it in women's single sex spaces, because those spaces are reserved for women. Likewise a woman can perform any gender she likes in any space women are allowed to go, but not in men's single sex spaces, because only men can go there.

Namelessnelly · 17/08/2025 05:10

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/08/2025 00:29

I'd also rather not walk into a room full of peeing drunk macho men, even wearing a wardrobe, because I'm a man who is not very macho and doesn't get drunk.

I’m confused. Are the TW wearing the wardrobe? How? How do you wear a wardrobe?

AlbusCornus · 17/08/2025 06:03

Nope. Not even close, snd your post just highlights that you will never understand what it is to actually be a woman, biologically, physiologically, physically and emotionally. Just no.

WandaSiri · 17/08/2025 07:09

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:12

I quite enjoyed this one - it's so far above the usual quality of argument we see here, and I think that deserves some acknowledgement. It made me think, at least.

both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

The more precise analogy here would be a (let's say) second-generation immigrant not only asserting a British identity, but also saying their ancestry itself was British, and that that ancestry is what defines quintessential Britishness.

both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

Most of your examples above as written represent less a rejection of difference than an honest acknowledgement of it (that's not to say they'd be appropriate to voice in most contexts). But the key question is, therefore, where such thoughts lead. To take the immigrant analogy: do these thoughts present a moral imperative to embrace and learn from multiculturalism, or a xenophobic "rejection" of it? This question is one of re/de-constructing a national identity. In contrast, women are being asked to 1) deny their own reality on an individual level (to accept that "woman" is internal and subjective, not physical and objective with the occasional outlier) and 2) surrender their legal protections and political voice (both of which exist only in contradistinction to men). Neither 1) not 2) is analogous to xenophobia. Lastly, whereas our country has always been a delicious melting pot of different invaders and visitors imperceptibly shaping whatever indeterminate mishmash British culture now is... women have always been female. Until now.

both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

I'd actually challenge this and say that "racism" is a better description of this than "xenophobia". Racism - by definition - is universally condemned as empty prejudice, because of the absence of meaningful difference - indeed, race itself is, arguably, constructed to a significant degree. In contrast, in our case, there is difference. We'd prefer not to highlight it and obsess about genes, of course, but posts like yours regrettably force us to.

both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

And this is where that genetic difference becomes pertinent. Because women's genetic difference has led to exactly the kind of prejudiced assumptions that racism upholds: "They're inferior, they're best suited to physical 'labour' (wherever on the plantation or through reproduction), they shouldn't vote or own property" etc. Feminists spent the last century arguing that our genes make us different but equal. In the early 1900s, their challenge was to persuade society of their equality. We got there in some respects (the vote - only held for a precious, pathetic 100 years - and an unqualified right to mortgages etc. - enjoyed for about 50!) But the fight for "equality" is far from won (just read "Invisible Women"). What better counter-attack on women's equality than to deny their difference in the first place, so they can no longer distinguish themselves to fight for it? Incredibly, it seems that we're back to the "different but equal" battle of last century - but fighting it on both fronts now, reduced to defending our own "difference" even as we seek equality despite it. A patriarchal masterstroke, some may say.

both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

Here, you rely on over-generalisation. There's a big difference between your reductive examples of damning prejudice above, and what feminists are typically (note: there's always outliers) saying, which is more akin to, "I worry that some Guatemalans may be coming over who aren't remotely in financial need," and which also often includes, "I'm really concerned about the impact that may be having on those Guatemalans who really do need our support," (AKA trans-identifying teens, the deeply dysphoric transsexual etc.)

both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

Again we see here the conveniently reductive phrasing that I'm sure matches some xenophobes, but doesn't actually reflect what the majority of GC feminists are saying. But more importantly, the stats don't lie: males 1) commit 98% of sexual crime, using 2) their up to 150% greater physical power. I bloody hope you're not saying the same about Guatemalan immigrants. 1) would be downright racist, and 2) the plot of a very curious superhero movie indeed.

both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

This one's so arbitrary as an analogy that I think my favourite response is PP's kid asking about why there's no tackling in tennis: there's rather too much to unpick. Certainly it's another false equivalency. But to take just one element... I think there's an interesting "tell" here in your "migration is too dangerous" - AKA, the feminist argument that remaining in your original gender may be more beneficial than transitioning. The key point here is that, whereas the xenophobic dismissal of migration rarely comes with concerted efforts by the xenophobe to improve the lot of Guatemalans, many feminists are fighting tooth and claw to ensure vulnerable children have the necessary provision to prevent them feeling compelled to undergo brutal and often life-limiting surgeries, and to have access to a better life through other means.

both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Has there been a 4000% percentage increase (ref. the Tavistock data) in American (I assume you're in the US) children taking dangerous journeys, with a significant proportion suffering lasting physical harm as a result? Are adults promulgating the belief through school, charitable campaigns and televised interviews that, if they don't do this, they may well commit suicide?

I mean, that would be horrifying, right?

Right?!

Edited for typos.

Edited

Chapeau, Catiette, for your patience and clarity. And for your Kathleen Stock-esque generosity in steel-manning the OP's analogy as you unpicked it and took down the underlying arguments.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/08/2025 07:10

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

Is that you wee Nicola Kranky? I know your book is a bit shit and your publicity interviews have been a disaster, but you really need to give it up now, no one is buying your ideology anymore.

Identityoneoff · 17/08/2025 07:19

Immigrants don't self-id into another citizenship. Laws that regulate citizenship are very strict.

Among the things that make really difficult to acquire citizenship, there is having committed a crime. How does the analogy work, when you consider self-id and prisons?

sanluca · 17/08/2025 07:31

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 20:57

it's a belief that they will remain the gender of their birth; that to 'trans' as in 'transition' isn't possible. so trans people per se, do not exist.

It is a belief that they will remain the sex of their birth. That to trans as in transition is to act in accordance with some of the gendered stereotypes of the opposite sex.

This is how trans people exist: they are their sex but change behaviour, clothes to certain stereotypes.

Legal protection is based on the sex, not gender. Toilets, sports, changing rooms are segregated based on sex, not gender.
A woman is an adult human female, hence transwomen aren't women.

Protections for women based on sex is not, nor will ever be transphobia.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 17/08/2025 07:34

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

No, simples really.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2025 07:37

I wonder though what the OP spends time doing in between starting derisive and accusatory threads.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5364263-mumsnet-obsession-with-penises

Last time, apparently we were obsessed with penises and this time we are apparently transphobic and xenophobic and radicalised into the ‘new right’. It does seem that this OP is only ever interested in thinking they have a clever ‘gotcha’ over the nasty obsessed women on the internet. There is no intention to understand, their posts are written for that purpose.

What it does show for us though is how little understanding of our position people have while getting a buzz out of supposedly getting one over on those they perceive as ignorant and hateful. While their posts are showing the reverse.

Mumsnet Obsession With Penises | Mumsnet

My controversial opinion is that most of the Mums who obsess here over penises, uteruses and chromosomes, would pick more important and interesting to...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5364263-mumsnet-obsession-with-penises

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