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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Misinformation correction: M&S Staff

929 replies

BeeSourianteAgain · 08/08/2025 14:03

M&S have responded to people's enquiries, here's one:

https://bsky.app/profile/dpdormouse.bsky.social/post/3lvuzitrplc2f

As expected the staff member was just doing their job, something that happens thousands of times a day in shops all over the country.

As per normal, the trans panic was manufactured.

I fully expect all the GCs and media pundits who were pushing all sorts of hate to apologise, but as a person on their second LGBTQ moral panic I know very well how it goes.

Bluesky

https://bsky.app/profile/dpdormouse.bsky.social/post/3lvuzitrplc2f

OP posts:
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PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:06

Brainworm · 09/08/2025 21:34

A male, with any gender identity, who proactively approaches a women or child who is browsing bras and not seeking advice or guidance, at best shows a remarkable lack of insight and empathy for how this behaviour could be perceived or experienced by a woman or girl.

The fact that you might not find this a problem should not be your ‘north star’ for considering why and how others might object.

Another one refusing to venture a suggestion on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened.

Occams razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 23:08

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 22:59

So no explanation on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened?

What a surprise?

Do carry on with the straw mans and undermining safeguarding.

Its most enlightening.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2025 23:09

A male person approached a teenaged girl, a 14 year old, in the bra section of the store.

There have been no lies about this.

No male person should be approaching any teenaged girl in the bra section. Staff or not staff. It is inappropriate behaviour.

Why is it even relevant to mention that the male person had a gender identity? Does knowing this change the appropriateness? I don’t think so.

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 23:10

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:06

Another one refusing to venture a suggestion on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened.

Occams razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.

Well to be charitable to all those displaying red flags about safeguarding on a parenting, I'll give you this:

Hanlon's razor is an adage, or rule of thumb, that states: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:11

Helleofabore · 09/08/2025 23:09

A male person approached a teenaged girl, a 14 year old, in the bra section of the store.

There have been no lies about this.

No male person should be approaching any teenaged girl in the bra section. Staff or not staff. It is inappropriate behaviour.

Why is it even relevant to mention that the male person had a gender identity? Does knowing this change the appropriateness? I don’t think so.

There have been no lies?

So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:12

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 21:23

You keep raising straw men.

The core of this is the following.

Adult males should not talk to lone teenage girls (who are not their own children) about their bras in ANY situation whatsoever OR put themselves into a situation where the conversation is highly likely to talk about bras OR they may be perceived that they are talking to an underage child about bras.

M&S are not addressing this point.

It's not even about this particular incident. It's about a general policy by M&S to commit to informing and training staff about this.

They don't want to.

Attempts to suggest the story is about ANYTHING else is either ignorance, naviety or deliberately and willful dishonesty.

A disturbing number of people are using the story as a way to try and undermine safeguarding principles. Many seem to be doing so in a fundamentally dishonest manner. You are one such poster who has raised more red flags than most on this score.

What Red said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:15

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 21:14

So what’s your explanation as to why so many people talking about how outrageous this all is have to lie about what happened.

If ‘trans sales assistant politely checks if mother and teenage daughter shopping in lingerie department need help and goes about her day when they say no’ is really an outrageous safeguarding risk, why are so many folk like JKR having to lie and embellish?

There’s a very simple answer - none of you actually believe that what actually happened stands up as anything even vaguely worthy of the outrage.

It isn’t what happened. The mother, and I believe her, not TRAs, says that the child was alone when she was approached by the male member of staff. Who left as soon as she appeared.

SabrinaThwaite · 09/08/2025 23:17

@PlanetJanette

Occam's razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.

What falsehoods?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:19

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 21:02

Except it’s there in black and white on actual live job ads for M&S sales roles. I linked to one on another thread.

But sure, random transphobes on mumsnet definitely know what’s in a sales assistants job description than the actual job description itself.

I dont give a fuck what their advert says. As pp said, the “job description” won’t involve approaching teenage girls looking at bras for anyone, let alone men.

SabrinaThwaite · 09/08/2025 23:19

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:11

There have been no lies?

So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?

JK Rowling did not claim that the person in question was offering to do a bra fitting.

Do keep up @PlanetJanette

Helleofabore · 09/08/2025 23:22

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:11

There have been no lies?

So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?

There has been no lies that a male person approached a 14 year old girl in the bra section.

This is a basic fact that is not a lie.

Notice how very specifically I did not say anything about bra fitting? Yet, you have just completely added facts to change what I said. That is dishonest but not unexpected.

That is actually you lying though. So it seems hypocritical to discuss alleged lies of others.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2025 23:24

SabrinaThwaite · 09/08/2025 23:19

JK Rowling did not claim that the person in question was offering to do a bra fitting.

Do keep up @PlanetJanette

No. She talked about how it would be inappropriate for a male person to offer to do a bra fitting. But didn’t directly state that the male person did anything but approach the teenaged girl.

It is actually a pretty telling aspect of the tactics used to shame and distract people from the basic facts. A male person approached a 14 year old girl in a bra section. Which was inappropriate behaviour and a safeguarding failure.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:31

LeftieRightsHoarder · 09/08/2025 17:16

I’ve never been approached by an assistant in M&S, and I shop there frequently. I’m amazed how many people think it’s normal for a man to go up and talk to a 14-year-old girl, let alone in a lingerie department.

No, actually I don’t believe they think it’s normal. They know it’s inappropriate. They just don’t care. What men want, men must have.

The heart of the matter and I agree, they don’t actually “proactively engage” in practice, whatever some job ad says. Not in any M&S I’ve ever been in anywhere in the country. In the lingerie department, in the food hall, in the clothes department or anywhere else.

cosimarama · 09/08/2025 23:32

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 20:59

Accosted is too strong a word. You’re right. And used in order to lie about what happened here.

The other bits don’t make sense I’m afraid. The only line M&S have communicated on this is that their employees work across Departments. An anonymous Twitter account claiming someone in the shop told her something is a far less authoritative source of M&S operating model than the actual words from the company itself. So those claiming that this employee was somehow wrong to help customers in a Department that wasn’t their own are just lying. They were acting in line with M&S’s confirmed operating model.

And even in your own post you need to lie about what happened. You know that ‘M&S staff don’t just approach customers to check if they need any help’ would sound ridiculous. So suddenly the employee was ‘hovering around’ (zero evidence) and asking if they wanted anything in particular (which is a different and far more unusual question to ‘do you need any help’).

Why is it that you think so many people have to lie about this story? If you were so convinced that what happened is wrong, why not just describe it accurately as a ‘trans woman (not confirmed but let’s assume) politely asked a mother and daughter whether they needed help while they were shopping in the lingerie department, and when they said no, went about her business’?

If what actually happened was so self evidently outrageous, then there would be no need to invent that they were ‘accosted’ or that the employee was ‘hovering around’, would there?

Ah come on now, you’re accusing me of lying about something I haven’t said at all about the employee in this case. Not sure why you’re doing that. It’s untrue of you to claim I said the employee in this incident “hovered round…” I wrote that M&S isn’t the kind of place where that sort of hovering interaction ever happens between staff and customers. The vibe from companies that encourage cold approaches, where they pretend to be busy while asking things like “are you looking for anything in particular?” “Let me know if you need any help” “warm out today isn’t it” etc.

As I previously said, the devil is in the detail with this incident. To reiterate for absolute clarity the employee in this case was NOT hovering around looking to help customers and chat to them. Again, as previously referenced, he walked up to a child from behind while she appeared to be alone browsing bras in the lingerie department - a department he wasn’t assigned to - and got her attention with “can I help you with anything” or a similar question. As many said on the first thread, it would be peculiar for any employee to do that. You don’t think there’s anything odd, weird, inappropriate, with it. Many do, hence the publicity.

In terms of the rest of your post, the entire incident comes from the mum’s word that a) a male staff member approached her 14 year old daughter in the lingerie department asking if she wanted him to help her while she was looking at bras b) the child appeared to be alone c) the company emailed apologising and confirmed he shouldn’t have been there. Additional details the mum has given on her X account say she wasn’t visible to the employee and she has requested the cctv footage from the store.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing about in terms of these three points. It seems to be point b mainly but it seems odd to dispute that the employee couldn’t see the mum when you obviously weren’t there? If you’re wrong that the mum, who the entire story comes from, is lying about point b, is point a ok with you? So if she’s wrong about point b, is it still ok for male staff to approach women and children who are together to ask the child specifically if they want help with bras? Why do you keep suggesting that M&S is somewhere that staff go up to customers and ask if they want help with xyz when it isn’t and never has been? Or, let’s say this staff member believes that, unlike other staff, they should do that, why choose to do it to a child looking at underwear on a floor they don’t actually cover. Why not in home or clothes sections where they work?

M&S’s “operating model” as you present it appears to be along the lines of “male staff can and should ask children about their underwear needs - approach girls with a polite ‘can I help you’ while they’re browsing alone or with grown ups”. Is that what you think is ok and normal? That’s why people want clarity and there’s talk about boycotts.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you feel like someone has been identified in public for just being ‘helpful’. You think the mum is just an extremely driven bigot who’s gone to the extent of using her own child to push a personal anti-trans view by lying about what happened. Ok, so if that was the case the pertinent question is still there regardless - is it fine for male staff to approach children, teen girls, in the lingerie section to ask if they want help while they are browsing underwear? Do you think that’s ok for the girls in question? Maybe you do but that’s the what you and M&S seem unwilling answer.

AnSolas · 09/08/2025 23:33

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:06

Another one refusing to venture a suggestion on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened.

Occams razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.

Why are you saying M&S is telling lies?

AnSolas · 09/08/2025 23:35

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:11

There have been no lies?

So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?

Why are you saying that M&S telling lies?

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:50

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:15

It isn’t what happened. The mother, and I believe her, not TRAs, says that the child was alone when she was approached by the male member of staff. Who left as soon as she appeared.

You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.

Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 23:52

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:50

You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.

Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?

You keep raising straw men.

The core of this is the following.

Adult males should not talk to lone teenage girls (who are not their own children) about their bras in ANY situation whatsoever OR put themselves into a situation where the conversation is highly likely to talk about bras OR they may be perceived that they are talking to an underage child about bras.

M&S are not addressing this point.

It's not even about this particular incident. It's about a general policy by M&S to commit to informing and training staff about this.

They don't want to.

Attempts to suggest the story is about ANYTHING else is either ignorance, naviety or deliberately and willful dishonesty.

A disturbing number of people are using the story as a way to try and undermine safeguarding principles. Many seem to be doing so in a fundamentally dishonest manner. You are one such poster who has raised more red flags than most on this score.

murasaki · 09/08/2025 23:54

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:50

You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.

Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?

Can you find the exact post from JKR where she said that specific staff member had offered a bra fitting. Rather than her saying that it was inappropriate for any male to do so?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:56

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:50

You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.

Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?

Yes, I believe her. I don’t expect her to put herself and her daughter at risk to out herself. She’s more convincing than any pompous men scolding women for our boundaries.

PlanetJanette · 09/08/2025 23:56

SabrinaThwaite · 09/08/2025 23:19

JK Rowling did not claim that the person in question was offering to do a bra fitting.

Do keep up @PlanetJanette

Yes she did. They are still on her Twitter feed. At least twice - she referred to the employee as a ‘cross-dressing man who wants to help fit bras on teenage girls’ and a ‘cross-dressing man who offer to fit bras on teenage girls’.

Why do you think she lied?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 23:57

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 23:52

You keep raising straw men.

The core of this is the following.

Adult males should not talk to lone teenage girls (who are not their own children) about their bras in ANY situation whatsoever OR put themselves into a situation where the conversation is highly likely to talk about bras OR they may be perceived that they are talking to an underage child about bras.

M&S are not addressing this point.

It's not even about this particular incident. It's about a general policy by M&S to commit to informing and training staff about this.

They don't want to.

Attempts to suggest the story is about ANYTHING else is either ignorance, naviety or deliberately and willful dishonesty.

A disturbing number of people are using the story as a way to try and undermine safeguarding principles. Many seem to be doing so in a fundamentally dishonest manner. You are one such poster who has raised more red flags than most on this score.

The pp is just going to bluster and scold in their usual fashion. That’s all they can do.

murasaki · 09/08/2025 23:59

I'm not on twitter/x so if you could link to the posts in question, that would be great. Unless they don't exist as you have translated them.

PlanetJanette · 10/08/2025 00:02

cosimarama · 09/08/2025 23:32

Ah come on now, you’re accusing me of lying about something I haven’t said at all about the employee in this case. Not sure why you’re doing that. It’s untrue of you to claim I said the employee in this incident “hovered round…” I wrote that M&S isn’t the kind of place where that sort of hovering interaction ever happens between staff and customers. The vibe from companies that encourage cold approaches, where they pretend to be busy while asking things like “are you looking for anything in particular?” “Let me know if you need any help” “warm out today isn’t it” etc.

As I previously said, the devil is in the detail with this incident. To reiterate for absolute clarity the employee in this case was NOT hovering around looking to help customers and chat to them. Again, as previously referenced, he walked up to a child from behind while she appeared to be alone browsing bras in the lingerie department - a department he wasn’t assigned to - and got her attention with “can I help you with anything” or a similar question. As many said on the first thread, it would be peculiar for any employee to do that. You don’t think there’s anything odd, weird, inappropriate, with it. Many do, hence the publicity.

In terms of the rest of your post, the entire incident comes from the mum’s word that a) a male staff member approached her 14 year old daughter in the lingerie department asking if she wanted him to help her while she was looking at bras b) the child appeared to be alone c) the company emailed apologising and confirmed he shouldn’t have been there. Additional details the mum has given on her X account say she wasn’t visible to the employee and she has requested the cctv footage from the store.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing about in terms of these three points. It seems to be point b mainly but it seems odd to dispute that the employee couldn’t see the mum when you obviously weren’t there? If you’re wrong that the mum, who the entire story comes from, is lying about point b, is point a ok with you? So if she’s wrong about point b, is it still ok for male staff to approach women and children who are together to ask the child specifically if they want help with bras? Why do you keep suggesting that M&S is somewhere that staff go up to customers and ask if they want help with xyz when it isn’t and never has been? Or, let’s say this staff member believes that, unlike other staff, they should do that, why choose to do it to a child looking at underwear on a floor they don’t actually cover. Why not in home or clothes sections where they work?

M&S’s “operating model” as you present it appears to be along the lines of “male staff can and should ask children about their underwear needs - approach girls with a polite ‘can I help you’ while they’re browsing alone or with grown ups”. Is that what you think is ok and normal? That’s why people want clarity and there’s talk about boycotts.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you feel like someone has been identified in public for just being ‘helpful’. You think the mum is just an extremely driven bigot who’s gone to the extent of using her own child to push a personal anti-trans view by lying about what happened. Ok, so if that was the case the pertinent question is still there regardless - is it fine for male staff to approach children, teen girls, in the lingerie section to ask if they want help while they are browsing underwear? Do you think that’s ok for the girls in question? Maybe you do but that’s the what you and M&S seem unwilling answer.

’Oh I never said this employee was hovering around’

’JK Rowling never said this specific employee offered bra fittings’

I hope you folk never have to face a defamation trial because your defences would be hilarious.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2025 00:09

I have never at any time suggested that this man offered a bra fitting. He just inappropriately approached a young girl who appeared to be alone looking at underwear, and then disappeared when her mum appeared.

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