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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/08/2025 21:44

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

OP posts:
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46
Chariothorses · 01/09/2025 11:15

from herald
11:13am
Five minute break for sonographers.

11:12am
Men are on average taller than women and do not lose height by declaring a female identity, she says.
It would be absurd to make the generalisations made about men, such as strength, weight and height, do not apply with "equal force" to transgender women.
She says opponents have been unable to prove to the contrary.

SternlyMatthews · 01/09/2025 11:16

CarefulN0w · 01/09/2025 11:12

I’d like to think now this is properly in the public domain there will be proper pushback against Drs changing their names and GI on the GMC register (and other HCP registers). I’m not holding their breath but it’s an outrageous lie to perpetrate against vulnerable people.

particularly (outrageous) in the light of Upton's evidence on non-disclosure to a patient requiring same sex intimate care.

murasaki · 01/09/2025 11:17

jamnpancakes · 01/09/2025 11:15

But what about the gender statement that he is female on the registration?

Self ID, I assume. It's been stated in the tribunal that he doesn't have a GRC, and he hadn't been 'living as a woman' for long enough to get one when this happened.

jamnpancakes · 01/09/2025 11:17

I'm not happy with looking up details of doctors, to find one that I think is a woman and then walk in to find a trans woman there.

TheHereticalOne · 01/09/2025 11:17

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 10:01

🩰 Interpretive Dance Routine: “Sad Times”

Theme:

A tragicomic ballet of misplaced conviction, bureaucratic melodrama, and the catharsis of judicial laughter.


🎭 Act I: The Mourning of Men

  • Lighting: Dim blue wash, with slow strobes mimicking courtroom fluorescents.
  • Music: A mournful cello solo, punctuated by sudden, childish cymbal crashes.
  • Movement:
A group of suited dancers enter in slow motion, clutching handkerchiefs and legal binders. They collapse one by one, sobbing into the floor, legs kicking like toddlers denied pudding. Their choreography is erratic—flailing arms, dramatic pirouettes into despair, and synchronized tantrum rolls across the stage. Occasionally, one attempts to stand and deliver a solemn monologue gesture, only to be overcome by emotion and crumple again.
  • Symbolism:
Their movements parody gravitas—each gesture meant to evoke dignity is undercut by exaggerated weeping and floor-thumping. The binders they carry are blank, fluttering open to reveal nothing but scribbles and teardrops.

📜 Act II: The Intervention

  • Lighting: A harsh spotlight isolates one dancer who rises, trembling, and mimes typing furiously on an invisible laptop.
  • Music: A frantic harpsichord piece, growing increasingly discordant.
  • Movement:
The ensemble gathers around a large scroll unfurled across the stage. They “submit” their thoughts by dancing atop it—leaping, stamping, and rolling, leaving behind trails of nonsense (represented by projected gibberish text). Their movements become more chaotic as they mime printing hundreds of pages, tossing them into the air like confetti. One dancer attempts to read aloud from the submission but devolves into gibberish, sobbing mid-sentence and crawling offstage.
  • Symbolism:
The act of “intervening” is rendered as a desperate plea for relevance—an interpretive tantrum masquerading as jurisprudence.

⚖️ Act III: The Judge’s Chamber

  • Lighting: Warm amber glow, suggesting quiet authority and mahogany furniture.
  • Music: Silence, then a single chuckle played on bassoon.
  • Movement:
A lone dancer enters as the judge—stoic, composed, with a gavel tucked under one arm. He reads the submission (a scroll now tangled around his legs), and slowly begins to shake with laughter. His body convulses in mirth—shoulders bouncing, feet tapping, until he breaks into a full comedic jig. He tosses the scroll into a bin beneath his desk (a prop revealed with dramatic flair), then pirouettes away with a wink to the audience.
  • Final Tableau:
The sad men peek from behind curtains, watching the judge dance. One attempts to cry again but only produces a squeaky hiccup. The curtain falls as the bin lid closes.

🗒️ Notes for Staging:

  • Costumes:
Ill-fitting suits, tear-stained cravats, and socks with constitutional quotes.
  • Props:
Oversized scrolls, invisible laptops, a bin with golden trim labeled “Judicial Discretion.”
  • Tone:
A blend of Beckettian absurdity and operatic farce. The sadness is real, but the self-importance is hilariously misplaced.

You have outdone yourself.

Would pay good money to see this staged.

MyAmpleSheep · 01/09/2025 11:18

Chariothorses · 01/09/2025 11:15

from herald
11:13am
Five minute break for sonographers.

11:12am
Men are on average taller than women and do not lose height by declaring a female identity, she says.
It would be absurd to make the generalisations made about men, such as strength, weight and height, do not apply with "equal force" to transgender women.
She says opponents have been unable to prove to the contrary.

Sonographers? Big Sond is having an ultrasound scan?

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:18

From Tribunal Tweet

A TiM, married to a woman, transitioned, and wanted a GRC and there was no same sex marriage. His claim that the cost of a GRC was an annulment, was manifestly dismissed. Civil partnership cured. NC - the margin of appreciation in relation to questions of this nature that require a sensitive balancing of competing claims, as an aside there has been no substantive challenge to Goodwin since published. A post operative TiM who wanted to receive his pension from woman's fund was entitled to it from the date of Goodwin judgement, the point to take from grant is that the implementation of Goodwin, was laudably prompt and sufficient.

J - Grant is appeals court

NC - yes. Did I give it to you

J - yes

NC - next authority relied upon by Rs, is Garson, that creates an intermediate zone for transexuals not living as a man or a woman. Garson establishes that GRC does not require surgery. The Rs argument is too much - if Garson establishes an intermediate zone then FWS is wrong.

And both Goodwin and Nico both speak to GRCs. DU does not have a GRC, he has never said that he does. He cannot have one at the material time. Even if Art 8, Goodwin, Garson gave non-medical trans people the right to access opposite SSS, then the Rs need to claim that the GRA it futile because on self-id as trans, they are entitled to SSS.

The same comments apply, it either takes matters no further at all, or it is constrained by the consequences of GRC, either the GRA is a dead letter and FWS is wrong. The Rs also cite Cook & Germany another ECHR access to toilets of lived sex is a paradigm example of living as one's acquired sex. Cook sets out things protected by Art 8, it doesn't mention toilets, changing rooms, etc.

It's about health insurance. There is no express support anywhere in the authorities, for access to SSS. The FWS judgment gives weight to the rights of women to physical and moral security. The Rs refer to Coleman and the nub of discrim is to avoid suspect classification, and rely on this to say that discrim on basis of pcs is a bad thing. We can go along with this to a point. The C is not saying he should be excluded from the women's CR because of his pc of GA, but because of his protected characteristics as a man.

The reference to male pattern criminality, is a bad point. It may be hard to give this point enough emphasis, this is part of the reason the Rs have been so intent on controlling language in this matter, it is harder to take on board that men who claim to be women are in fact men; if you call them transwomen and call them she. It is the law w/out a GRC is man is simply a man. He belongs in the subcategory of men. He is not a woman.

I'm sorry to labour this point, the reason I do this is that the Rs approach to language has not just been played out in this tribunal but has been played out up and down the land, it has become taboo, it makes it hard to hang on to the reality that transwomen are men. A TW with a GRC is simply and factually a man. To go back to the point for which the Rs on relying on Colemen, reading statistics applying to men as also applying to TIMs, it is unreasonable to object to generalisations on the basis of sex.

WandaSiri · 01/09/2025 11:19

Thanks so much, MyrtleLion and Ickky. I'm trying to listen along but TT obviously have better hearing than I do!

Copied from TT:
For example, men are taller than women, does not need to be separately proved for transwomen. The Tribunal needs to take it as read that such generalisation do apply to TiM. If the Rs want to say that such generalisations do not apply, they need to prove that and they have not.

This is such an important point. RMW tried this in Harriet Haynes case about pool(?), iirc - claiming that we don't know if MCW are taller, can't tell if they're stronger, if they've got longer arms, etc - and as a tactic, it's in keeping with Jane Russell's claim that the FWS judgement was only about gender-balancing of boards in Scotland. Ignoring the principle explained and focussing on specifics to try to limit the effect of FWS SC judgement.

Edited for clarity

Chersfrozenface · 01/09/2025 11:19

jamnpancakes · 01/09/2025 11:17

I'm not happy with looking up details of doctors, to find one that I think is a woman and then walk in to find a trans woman there.

Quite.

How many people know that "Gender" on the GMC register means "what the dr claims to be" not the dr's actual sex?

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:20

From Tribunal Tweets

For example, men are taller than women, does not need to be separately proved for transwomen. The Tribunal needs to take it as read that such generalisation do apply to TiM. If the Rs want to say that such generalisations do not apply, they need to prove that and they have not.

The Rs want to move TW from the category of men, to prove that those generalisations do not apply to them, they need evidence for that. I've been speaking for an hour, time for a break? J - 5 minute break. Court rises. End of morning part 1

JurassicPark4Eva · 01/09/2025 11:21

Am sat here extolling the virtues (or rather the skills) of NC to DH who doesn't know much about competent barristers and their terribly clever brains and use of words.

She's making this so beautifully simple and clear in as few words as possible, and I would LOVE to see / hear her in action.

Will have to keep an eye out for a future case and apply to view it.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:21

We're up to date.

just eating breakfast now xx

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 11:22

Panel back

PrettyDamnCosmic · 01/09/2025 11:24

jamnpancakes · 01/09/2025 10:49

Can you explain this to me please? Has this person been registered in the name Beth with a new gender ?

Yes. He now prefers to be known as Elisabeth Ruth Annikki Upton with a new entry & GMC number

www.gmc-uk.org/registrants/8038543

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 11:24

NC talking about Dr U not having a DSD.

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 11:25

NC you need a mummy and a daddy...

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:25

Judge and Panel have returned.

NC - before I resume on case law, I am reminded that there is a possible route to lawfulness of SSS in the workplace under the EA, but nobody seems to be suggesting SSS are unlawful in the workplace.

ickky · 01/09/2025 11:25

GO ON NC

Laughed out of court

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 11:26

onto men in women's prisons now.

She's steaming through these.

WandaSiri · 01/09/2025 11:26

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 11:25

NC you need a mummy and a daddy...

I loved that!

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:27

NC - takes me to Elon Cain (?) the Rs cite, seemingly in support of the proposition that there is domestic recognition of intersex, how is this relevant as DU does not have a DSD, is it a rearguard action against the Rs witnesses who admitted to the importance of biological sex.

It should be within judicial knowledge, we don't need to spell those out or prove them. Any child over the age of 5 knows that you need a mummy and a daddy to make a baby. There are different kinds of bodies. Rs citing case on trans prisoners in female prisons. Please turn to

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 11:27

Chersfrozenface · 01/09/2025 11:19

Quite.

How many people know that "Gender" on the GMC register means "what the dr claims to be" not the dr's actual sex?

Maybe they could add a non-binary category too - a sort of lucky-dip

Though based on DU's case, the whole register could be classed that way

Keenovay · 01/09/2025 11:28

WandaSiri · 01/09/2025 11:19

Thanks so much, MyrtleLion and Ickky. I'm trying to listen along but TT obviously have better hearing than I do!

Copied from TT:
For example, men are taller than women, does not need to be separately proved for transwomen. The Tribunal needs to take it as read that such generalisation do apply to TiM. If the Rs want to say that such generalisations do not apply, they need to prove that and they have not.

This is such an important point. RMW tried this in Harriet Haynes case about pool(?), iirc - claiming that we don't know if MCW are taller, can't tell if they're stronger, if they've got longer arms, etc - and as a tactic, it's in keeping with Jane Russell's claim that the FWS judgement was only about gender-balancing of boards in Scotland. Ignoring the principle explained and focussing on specifics to try to limit the effect of FWS SC judgement.

Edited for clarity

Edited

This just sent me down a rabbithole about height dysphoria and leg reduction surgery.. and shoulder width reduction surgery. Shudder.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 11:30

From TT

para 83, page 212 of Rs auth bundle.

J & Panel reading.

NC - from the cases, the difficult the C faces, is that to exclude all transwomen, the policy requires all the relevant facts to be assessed and is unassailable. It is 'if x, then y'. It says IF some TW can be in

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