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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 08/08/2025 11:33

Brainworm · 08/08/2025 09:25

Under David Isaac’s reign, guidance was produced that didn’t comply with the law and instead reflected activists preferences, so it’s not surprising that that the TRAs expect their lobbying to deliver what they want.

Circumventing public debate and drafting/ redrafting policy and guidance to reflect the law as they wanted it to be, not the law as it is (the Denton strategy) was always going to fail. They believed the momentum created by this strategy would bring permanence. They thought the Contact Hypothesis that worked so well for same sex attracted people (ever growing numbers of being ‘out’ and increased exposure to gay people, resulting in reduced hostility and fear) would mean that by the time people realised the law wasn’t reflective of what was happening, without issue, no one would object.

However, the Contact Hypothesis that served same sex attracted people does not apply to trans people. A significant proportion of people with trans identities are damaged, damaging or both, and this is evident to those who spend time with them. This is why the Denton Strategy was destined to fail.

I am not surprised by the levels of denial and disbelief TRAs are experiencing. Their self perceived ‘gains’ and ‘rights’ were a mirage but they experienced them as tangible because nothing was in the way of acting upon them as if they were real.

Most TRAs do not seem to recognise that there is no going back and the genie is out of the bottle. Their misrepresentations of the law have been exposed, their success with avoiding scrutiny whilst making significant headway in influencing policy and practice has led to intense scrutiny that would never had arisen if they had been more open from the start.

Their reaction to all this is exacerbating the phenomenon that is the opposite of the Contact Hypothesis. I think this could be called the ‘Let them Speak’ hypothesis!

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Great post but it was under Trevor Phillips' reign at EHRC, not David Isaacs.

I've no doubt that Isaacs has TRA tendencies but tbf, Stonewall turned to shit after he left and EHRC had already turned to shit before he arrived.

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 11:34

MelOfTheRoses · 08/08/2025 10:43

I hope he gets to say it every chance he can. He deserves it 😁

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"Good morning, you're listening to the Today programme on BBC Radio 4. Transwomen are biological men. And now the news, read by Neil Sleat."

Grin
RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 11:42

Safeguarding principles are black and white and very hard and clear cut by definition.

They are not open to negotiation, consultant or compromise.

Anyone who tries to do so is a walking red flag even if they are innocent. Attempts to undermine safeguarding should always be looked on with robust suspicion for good reason. They should always be questioned and challenged.

Brainworm · 08/08/2025 11:46

Merrymouse · 08/08/2025 11:09

As long as the donations come in, the strength of their case doesn't really matter, but I wonder how long they will manage to keep this going? It's pretty clear that they want to take a case to the ECtHR, so my uneducated guess is at least another 2 years, even if they never get to the ECtHR.

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I have noticed increasing numbers of barristers speaking up/ out against JM. I tend to think it would be better for the GC cause for him to run out of road in terms of legal challenges to bring rather than being discredited by the legal profession and/or claims being dismissed as vexatious/ lacking merit. It he can spin it that he was such a threat that those in power stopped him, this will fuel or sustain misguided ideas about injustice. However, if he is stopped, this would prevent people with good intentions throwing their money away to fund his lifestyle

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 11:53

Unfortunately I don't think you can stop grifters like him easily without risking important free speech and legal support for legitimate cases.

Merrymouse · 08/08/2025 12:09

Brainworm · 08/08/2025 11:46

I have noticed increasing numbers of barristers speaking up/ out against JM. I tend to think it would be better for the GC cause for him to run out of road in terms of legal challenges to bring rather than being discredited by the legal profession and/or claims being dismissed as vexatious/ lacking merit. It he can spin it that he was such a threat that those in power stopped him, this will fuel or sustain misguided ideas about injustice. However, if he is stopped, this would prevent people with good intentions throwing their money away to fund his lifestyle

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I found this appeal re: the Icebreaker tax scheme.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58de401aed915d06ac00009e/Seven_Individuals_v_HMRC.pdf

Part of his argument seems to be that because the scheme fell within the relevant rules for HMRC to assess the scheme, they had prejudged that it was a profit making enterprise, and that therefore it couldn't be a tax avoidance scheme.

His argument didn't work, but I'm sure he was paid well.

I can't remember the details of the Brexit case he was involved in, but if he has made a career out of arguing the toss, then his comments on the EHRC follow that pattern.

EmpressaurusKitty · 08/08/2025 12:17

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/08/2025 09:29

Very interesting points @Brainworm . I've long considered the comparisons on trans identification to homosexuality to be at best, surface, and under any scrutiny at all, completely different things

Tagging the T onto the LGB was a stroke of PR genius, to be fair.

WarriorN · 08/08/2025 13:00

storminabuttercup · 08/08/2025 10:40

Forgive me, but this isn’t new is it? Those places should have always given us single sex spaces but previously they were let’s say ‘ignoring’ the fact that one cannot choose their sex. The ruling a few months back just clarified for the hard of understanding what a woman actually is.
Either way it’s about time

A ridiculous amount of people in the uk really do think it’s on case by case basis or that self id is totes the law.

It’s all shocking news to them, but yes us in fact been the law for 15 years.

you should see the meltdowns those who work in museums and galleries are having

SinnerBoy · 08/08/2025 13:44

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 10:32

The misuse (in the UK) of the word “bathroom” never ceases to annoy me.

”Bathroom ban” indeed.

Edited

I pointed that out to him just now, he's unblocked me!

Dogsrbrill · 08/08/2025 14:05

MelOfTheRoses · 08/08/2025 10:43

I hope he gets to say it every chance he can. He deserves it 😁

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I've just listened to it and he did (rightfully ) seem to enjoy saying it.

ButIlikepink · 08/08/2025 14:37

Will news like this influence NHS Fife or Darlington?
They are on a 'hiding to nothing' if they continue.
How about misgendering? Will we still be expected to use chosen pronouns?
Trans people will still be among us.

MagicSexEssence · 08/08/2025 14:51

What's with the trans Reddit obsession with ID for toilets and policing changing rooms? Noone is going to be doing that. If you want to use the wrong facility then go right ahead, noone is stopping you. But if someone complains, you are the one who is in the wrong and will be told to leave.

And the whole "a man can disguise himself as a trans man!!!" just totally misses the point. If a man pretended he was a trans identifying woman and went into the women's changing room to flash it would be very, very obvious that he was a man. Plus if anyone complained any cursory investigation would immediately reveal the true nature of what was going on and the man would be told to leave.

JellySaurus · 08/08/2025 14:53

Staff will be able to make inquiries about a person’s birth sex or legal changes made to their gender

And then what? Obvious male presents a legally falsified birth certificate, therefore gets to use women's single sex facilities? It keeps the chancers out (if service providers can be bothered to police and enforce it) but still shows men to access and intimidate vulnerable women.

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 15:12

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

Joly has spoken, as has Sophie Molly and apparently 'It's war". The trantrums are real <rolls eyes>

WallaceinAnderland · 08/08/2025 15:20

There's a lot of bravado about males continuing to use female spaces but in reality the majority will back down. The obvious answer, which we have said all along, is to campaign for more gender neutral spaces, alongside single sex spaces.

Obviously this isn't good enough for those who insist that males must be allowed to access female only spaces, even when gender neutral facilities are available, such as this poster on reddit:

"Also, when I say remain inclusive, I mean legally allowing trans women in the women's changing rooms etc, I don't mean gender neutral spaces, because I also don't want to have to share spaces with men."

storminabuttercup · 08/08/2025 15:26

WallaceinAnderland · 08/08/2025 15:20

There's a lot of bravado about males continuing to use female spaces but in reality the majority will back down. The obvious answer, which we have said all along, is to campaign for more gender neutral spaces, alongside single sex spaces.

Obviously this isn't good enough for those who insist that males must be allowed to access female only spaces, even when gender neutral facilities are available, such as this poster on reddit:

"Also, when I say remain inclusive, I mean legally allowing trans women in the women's changing rooms etc, I don't mean gender neutral spaces, because I also don't want to have to share spaces with men."

This, what’s its doing is making it no longer women’s problem to sort, we don’t have to be kind and put aside our own fears because some fella may have hurty feelings

most discussions I’ve seen though is they don’t want a third space they want to use ours like you say. I’ve never seen a reasonable explanation for the why though, just Veruca Salt style foot stamping

ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2025 15:46

WallaceinAnderland · 08/08/2025 15:20

There's a lot of bravado about males continuing to use female spaces but in reality the majority will back down. The obvious answer, which we have said all along, is to campaign for more gender neutral spaces, alongside single sex spaces.

Obviously this isn't good enough for those who insist that males must be allowed to access female only spaces, even when gender neutral facilities are available, such as this poster on reddit:

"Also, when I say remain inclusive, I mean legally allowing trans women in the women's changing rooms etc, I don't mean gender neutral spaces, because I also don't want to have to share spaces with men."

So… “I dont want to share with men, therefore women will have to share with men”.Hmm

luckily for him mixed sex facilities should be single occupancy so he won’t have to share with other men, and women won’t have to share with him. He should get onboard with campaigning for greater provision of this alternative.

MagicSexEssence · 08/08/2025 15:51

JellySaurus · 08/08/2025 14:53

Staff will be able to make inquiries about a person’s birth sex or legal changes made to their gender

And then what? Obvious male presents a legally falsified birth certificate, therefore gets to use women's single sex facilities? It keeps the chancers out (if service providers can be bothered to police and enforce it) but still shows men to access and intimidate vulnerable women.

It doesnt really matter whether it's policed or enforced. Some will still try it on. If they're harmless they may eventually get challenged enough times that they stop using women's facilities. If they are harmful then the law is now on our side and they will be treated as the flasher/perv that they are, rather than praised for their bravery.

Another very important point is that there are some places where the individual doesn't get to choose which door to go in - hospital wards and prisons for example.

BeeSourianteAgain · 08/08/2025 16:06

Igneococcus · 07/08/2025 21:03

Top story on the online version of the Times, I assume the headline should read from female single sex spaces, rather than all single sex spaces:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/d7488b47-44e2-4a75-b0d8-97655b351574?shareToken=78996068d667d20d5a1593520907c7c8

Make sure you have a copy of your birth certificate at all times with you just in case someone thinks you're trans.

Well done for pushing this moral panic - more cisgender women will be affected than trans women given that it's 200:1

GCism, dragging women's rights back decades.

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 16:11

BeeSourianteAgain · 08/08/2025 16:06

Make sure you have a copy of your birth certificate at all times with you just in case someone thinks you're trans.

Well done for pushing this moral panic - more cisgender women will be affected than trans women given that it's 200:1

GCism, dragging women's rights back decades.

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Or just use the appropriate toilets for your sex and you'll probably be fine because it's your hips, height, gait and voice which will really give you away.

Not your dress and haircut.

Having been IDed for alcohol until I was 35, I don't have a problem with this anyway as we have these laws to safeguard, particularly safeguarding children.

Is there any particular reason you have a problem with safeguarding techniques and principles?

Tilts head

Original poster
Igneococcus · 08/08/2025 16:13

BeeSourianteAgain · 08/08/2025 16:06

Make sure you have a copy of your birth certificate at all times with you just in case someone thinks you're trans.

Well done for pushing this moral panic - more cisgender women will be affected than trans women given that it's 200:1

GCism, dragging women's rights back decades.

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Nobody in all my life as an above average tall woman or girl has ever mistaken me for a man or a boy. Never, even when I had short hair.
You do come across as very desperate, Bee.

OP posts:
Original poster
Igneococcus · 08/08/2025 16:13

Not sure why this posted twice.

OP posts:
SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 16:19

BeeSourianteAgain · 08/08/2025 16:06

Make sure you have a copy of your birth certificate at all times with you just in case someone thinks you're trans.

Well done for pushing this moral panic - more cisgender women will be affected than trans women given that it's 200:1

GCism, dragging women's rights back decades.

Show quote history

Give it up Bee, you're a busted flush. We can tell who's trans, especially of the MtF variety. Men don't pass as women no matter what you tell yourselves.

As for women, we're fine without your intervention, ta. For the vanishingly small amount of women who are butch/masculine enough for them to be mistaken as men on first glance, it becomes obviously very quickly that they're not. If there's any angst cause by ambiguity and accusations/suspicion, it's the TRA mob that's caused that by trying to slide into spaces you had no right to access.

Your faux concern for women is unnecessary and unwanted.

WallaceinAnderland · 08/08/2025 16:20

Make sure you have a copy of your birth certificate at all times with you just in case someone thinks you're trans.

We have to show proof of age, address, etc. for all sorts of things. If having to show proof of sex to use single sex facilities keeps males out of female spaces then I'm happy to provide it.

Why make such a drama out of everything. How do you get through day to day life with all this angst.