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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/08/2025 09:29

Very interesting points @Brainworm . I've long considered the comparisons on trans identification to homosexuality to be at best, surface, and under any scrutiny at all, completely different things

WarriorN · 08/08/2025 09:29

Read out on the today programme this morning 🎉

Helleofabore · 08/08/2025 09:31

SabrinaThwaite · 07/08/2025 22:24

Trans Reddit UK isn’t happy, is it?

What did they think would happen?

And as to the ‘EHRC is ignoring responses to the consultation’, maybe all those copy and paste ones that they were all egging each other on to submit have proved worthless. If you get 1000 versions of exactly the same response, then you can discount 999 of them.

In a small way, I feel sorry for those who didn’t do the research themselves, for whatever reason, but believed people like McCloud and White that the EHRC guidance was wrong and would be changed. They keep being sold pipe dreams.

I also wonder whether McCloud’s
professional reputation and entry into activism will survive when it seems to have fallen at the very first hurdle.

White? Well why would anyone think that White was going to be right when it comes to White’s interpretation of the law? A failed book that was almost immediately shown to be out of date and giving incorrect interpretation, and several significant fails shouldn’t imbue anyone with confidence.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2025 09:36

Brainworm · 08/08/2025 09:25

Under David Isaac’s reign, guidance was produced that didn’t comply with the law and instead reflected activists preferences, so it’s not surprising that that the TRAs expect their lobbying to deliver what they want.

Circumventing public debate and drafting/ redrafting policy and guidance to reflect the law as they wanted it to be, not the law as it is (the Denton strategy) was always going to fail. They believed the momentum created by this strategy would bring permanence. They thought the Contact Hypothesis that worked so well for same sex attracted people (ever growing numbers of being ‘out’ and increased exposure to gay people, resulting in reduced hostility and fear) would mean that by the time people realised the law wasn’t reflective of what was happening, without issue, no one would object.

However, the Contact Hypothesis that served same sex attracted people does not apply to trans people. A significant proportion of people with trans identities are damaged, damaging or both, and this is evident to those who spend time with them. This is why the Denton Strategy was destined to fail.

I am not surprised by the levels of denial and disbelief TRAs are experiencing. Their self perceived ‘gains’ and ‘rights’ were a mirage but they experienced them as tangible because nothing was in the way of acting upon them as if they were real.

Most TRAs do not seem to recognise that there is no going back and the genie is out of the bottle. Their misrepresentations of the law have been exposed, their success with avoiding scrutiny whilst making significant headway in influencing policy and practice has led to intense scrutiny that would never had arisen if they had been more open from the start.

Their reaction to all this is exacerbating the phenomenon that is the opposite of the Contact Hypothesis. I think this could be called the ‘Let them Speak’ hypothesis!

Indeed. Build on rock (materially understood and proven over time) and your position will endure. Build on sand (with capacity to move and proven to be not reliable) and your position crumbles as that sand moves.

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 09:42

WarriorN · 08/08/2025 09:29

Read out on the today programme this morning 🎉

And Justin Webb got to say that transwomen are biological men knowing he can’t be disciplined for it! That must have been satisfying.

Greyskybluesky · 08/08/2025 09:51

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 09:42

And Justin Webb got to say that transwomen are biological men knowing he can’t be disciplined for it! That must have been satisfying.

Thanks. I can't listen to this programme any more but I wondered how Justin Webb was getting on!

Dogsrbrill · 08/08/2025 09:53

WarriorN · 08/08/2025 09:29

Read out on the today programme this morning 🎉

What time was that ,

Dogsrbrill · 08/08/2025 09:55

On a side note , my phones must have picked up on my interest in this subject and I have started to get adverts for changing room designs on Instagram . So at least it will give some people a new kind of work to get into

ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2025 10:01

monkeyspaw · 08/08/2025 02:38

Couple of especially bonkers comments:

"Psychological genocide being implemented."

"I will die in a hunger strike in prison before I refuse to use service which should be rightfully mine.However, I fear that this is one step closer to our systematic eradication."

A bit of a logic fail there, if he still thinks women’s single sex services are ‘rightfully his’. In the (I think unlikely) event that breaking the law attracted prison sentences he’d find himself unable to choose which prison service to use.

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 10:01

Dogsrbrill · 08/08/2025 09:53

What time was that ,

Just after 06:00 when they reviewed the papers is when I heard it.

Beowulfa · 08/08/2025 10:03

Any comment/unhinged rant from Maugham yet?

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 10:10

Beowulfa · 08/08/2025 10:03

Any comment/unhinged rant from Maugham yet?

The Good Laugh Project has posted: https://x.com/GoodLawProject/status/1953743492808679489

The line seems to be now that the EHRC have overstepped beyond the scope of the FWS ruling, and have enormously missed the point that the FWS ruling was an umbrella ruling that filters down to many issues. And that not all responses could have been read, feeding into the "trans voices must dominate in any issue relating to trans people" narrative Hmm

https://x.com/GoodLawProject/status/1953743492808679489

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 10:20

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 10:10

The Good Laugh Project has posted: https://x.com/GoodLawProject/status/1953743492808679489

The line seems to be now that the EHRC have overstepped beyond the scope of the FWS ruling, and have enormously missed the point that the FWS ruling was an umbrella ruling that filters down to many issues. And that not all responses could have been read, feeding into the "trans voices must dominate in any issue relating to trans people" narrative Hmm

Overstepped the clear ruling that sex is not gender and shouldn't be treated as if it is as that undermines the rights of women and gay people.

Which bit does he struggle with?

TonTonMacoute · 08/08/2025 10:29

Psychological genocide!? WTF is that? What does it even mean?

Interestingly, there is a live poll on the Times website for this story, 92% of people who responded agree that trans women should not be able to access women's only spaces.

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 10:32

The misuse (in the UK) of the word “bathroom” never ceases to annoy me.

”Bathroom ban” indeed.

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 10:32

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 10:20

Overstepped the clear ruling that sex is not gender and shouldn't be treated as if it is as that undermines the rights of women and gay people.

Which bit does he struggle with?

I think, like many TRAs, he struggles with the idea that you can't just present the law the way you want it to be, and it magically becomes so. Which, for a lawyer, is...unusual.

They were all desperately hoping that the final EHRC document would be vastly different to the interim guidance. That hasn't happened so the rending of (appropriately gendered) garments has commenced.

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 10:38

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 10:32

The misuse (in the UK) of the word “bathroom” never ceases to annoy me.

”Bathroom ban” indeed.

Edited

That suggests he's pandering not to a British audience but to an American one.

Which is interesting in its own right for a point of British law.

He's chasing the money.

storminabuttercup · 08/08/2025 10:40

Forgive me, but this isn’t new is it? Those places should have always given us single sex spaces but previously they were let’s say ‘ignoring’ the fact that one cannot choose their sex. The ruling a few months back just clarified for the hard of understanding what a woman actually is.
Either way it’s about time

OneNeatBlueOrca · 08/08/2025 10:42

BettyBooper · 07/08/2025 21:20

Thanks for posting. Great news but also a great example of how language has been utterly mutilated to become incomprehensible to many readers.

Ban men from female single sex spaces is what it should say.

MelOfTheRoses · 08/08/2025 10:43

borntobequiet · 08/08/2025 09:42

And Justin Webb got to say that transwomen are biological men knowing he can’t be disciplined for it! That must have been satisfying.

I hope he gets to say it every chance he can. He deserves it 😁

SabrinaThwaite · 08/08/2025 10:46

Helleofabore · 08/08/2025 09:31

In a small way, I feel sorry for those who didn’t do the research themselves, for whatever reason, but believed people like McCloud and White that the EHRC guidance was wrong and would be changed. They keep being sold pipe dreams.

I also wonder whether McCloud’s
professional reputation and entry into activism will survive when it seems to have fallen at the very first hurdle.

White? Well why would anyone think that White was going to be right when it comes to White’s interpretation of the law? A failed book that was almost immediately shown to be out of date and giving incorrect interpretation, and several significant fails shouldn’t imbue anyone with confidence.

White’s eagerness to claim direct discrimination against Harriet Haynes on the grounds of gender reassignment instead of on the grounds of sex in Haynes v EBPF was quite the blunder.

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2025 10:49

storminabuttercup · 08/08/2025 10:40

Forgive me, but this isn’t new is it? Those places should have always given us single sex spaces but previously they were let’s say ‘ignoring’ the fact that one cannot choose their sex. The ruling a few months back just clarified for the hard of understanding what a woman actually is.
Either way it’s about time

Nope. It's been the law since 2010.

That's fifteen years ago.

Stonewall have managed to undermine the law this much.

Merrymouse · 08/08/2025 10:58

Campaigners have accused the EHRC of “ignoring” their views because it used artificial intelligence to categorise the replies to the consultation. Insiders said this was a practice that had been rolled out across government departments to save civil servants’ time.

Do they really still not understand that neither the EHRC nor the Supreme Court is responsible for creating legislation?

Merrymouse · 08/08/2025 11:09

SidewaysOtter · 08/08/2025 10:10

The Good Laugh Project has posted: https://x.com/GoodLawProject/status/1953743492808679489

The line seems to be now that the EHRC have overstepped beyond the scope of the FWS ruling, and have enormously missed the point that the FWS ruling was an umbrella ruling that filters down to many issues. And that not all responses could have been read, feeding into the "trans voices must dominate in any issue relating to trans people" narrative Hmm

As long as the donations come in, the strength of their case doesn't really matter, but I wonder how long they will manage to keep this going? It's pretty clear that they want to take a case to the ECtHR, so my uneducated guess is at least another 2 years, even if they never get to the ECtHR.

EsmeShelby · 08/08/2025 11:33

Yes, I would assume they can go in the men's as that's where they should be.