M&S apologises over trans employee in bra department (Telegraph)

[WimbledonWhites]

How many “cis” male members of staff do you suppose would approach teenage girls in the lingerie department?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/04/ms-apologises-over-trans-employee-in-bra-department/

https://archive.ph/nTDB9archive.ph/nTDB9

You’re not going to get information on that from Lun82. If they’re posting in good faith theyre clearly very very impaired on the mind blindness scale. My DS is autistic but not 100% mind-blind so it varies significantly amongst those diagnosed.

When I explained the M&S story to DS even he understood the safeguarding issues and remembered the “don’t let anyone touch your pants” or “talking about pants” lectures from primary school.

Lun82 can’t understand and honestly you’re wasting your breath - they only recognised one of the implied terms in the article when I queried them earlier and missed out all the others. This is a “can’t not won’t situation” and radical acceptance is the only way you’ll save your sanity when dealing with someone who’s so far off the mark!

I have an ongoing argument with my husband about why putting “but” into the middle of an apology means that it’s no longer an apology. 16 years and multiple explanations from me (and others) and he still knows better. it would be funny if it weren’t so upsetting

I'm not expecting a response that addresses that.

There will be more ignoring of the key points to scold us.

Because it's not about engagement with concerns. It is solely about scolding women for saying no.

Women aren't allowed to say no.

@Lun82 , help me out here. I’m trying hard to see your PoV.

You say he didn’t ask about her bra size or talk about her underwear. How would it have gone if the mum hadn’t intervened?

14yr old girl in bra section, looking at bras , apparently alone.
Nice kind worker approaches and offers to help.

What happens next? What conversation will follow that isn’t about bras and bra sizes and 14yr old girls?

Let’s put to one side -
This nice kind worker is 6’2”, dressed like a woman but mistaken for a man by the girl and her mum.
Assistants in M&S wait to be asked rather than approaching.

So how does that conversation go, that isn’t about a girl’s bra?
‘Oh yes, thank you! I’m looking for the biscuits but seem to be trapped in the bra department! How do I leave?’, is the best I can come up with.

You're very, very kind and magnanimous with that possible explanation,KnottyAuty. From where I'm standing, all I'm seeing is "teenager in her bra, women stop drawing the obvious conclusion about a man crossing shop floors and approaching a teenager about her bra and withdrawing when her mother appears, no I haven't read the thread but everyone send me lots of links about the teenager in her bra, it's all because I am an enlightened free thinker who pushes back against women's assumptions about men who seek out teenagers in their bras" and so on.

The simplest explanation is usually correct.

How about something as straightforward as "Do you need any help", "yes I'm looking for a bra", "Bras are over there," "thanks". or more likely with an embarrassed teen girl "do you need any help" "no thanks" "okay". M&S said in their response that colleagues work all across the store, they aren't hired for our attached to a particular department.

This male wanted to help a young teenage girl fit a bra, @InWhatWorld . Not even remotely the same as men buying lingerie for their wives.

Customer wondering around browsing
"Hi can I help you?"

Possible responses
"No" often with the customer feeling harassed rather than helped. I hate being asked this. It's actually a high pressure selling technique.

"Yes"

Next response can only possibly be
"Oh what are you looking for today?"

So looking for further information.

The response to this can only be a description of style.

The further question can then only be
"Oh what's you've size".

The narrowness of this conversation and how it CAN progress means the argument about there being no information to say that the teenage customer was asked for her size is picking fault for the sake of picking fault and by nature is not a response in good faith.

There isn't another explanation. At some point the conversation is about information about the teens underwear which is inappropriate from a male.

To be fair, I used to have a trans friend (who I’ve known since a child) and you would never know they were male.

God you are dishonest.

Is this like Father Ted where the teen is lost in the middle of lingerie department and can't find her way out or where the bras are?

I think you’ll find most women can tell
It’s probably down to evolving enough to protect ourselves from predictors

Is Lun enjoying proving that he either hasn't read the thread or that he's ignoring everything we say and pretending we didn't say it?

I know Lun82 is almost certainly not from round these parts and has most probably never frequented M&S, but I'm still struggling to understand what sort of job description requires roaming around the store from department to department approaching people with offers of help.

Oh no, I'm stood by the bras.

Help me find the bras, I can't possibly see where the bras are.

If we are into asking what type of bras then we are already into the inappropriate remember.

Remember safeguarding.

Once entered into the conversation about "how can I help?"
Whilst in the middle of the lingerie department

How does a male employee regardless of how they identify, defend themselves against a 'crazed mother' demanding why they are asking inappropriate questions about their teenage daughters underwear?

Safeguarding says you don't enter into this conversation for your own wellbeing as well as the child's.

Either you are not female, or you cannot empathise with teenaged girls about bra shopping.

"Do you need any help", "yes I'm looking for a bra", "Bras are over there," "thanks". or more likely with an embarrassed teen girl "do you need any help" "no thanks" "okay".

"Do you need any help"

Already at this point the behaviour of a male person approaching a teenaged girl in a bra section has crossed the line of appropriate behaviour.

or more likely with an embarrassed teen girl "do you need any help" "no thanks" "okay".

Oh... you DO recognise that the very simple interaction is likely to embarrass the teenager! Thanks for confirming this.

So, you understand that the teenaged girl is HIGHLY LIKELY to be embarrassed by the interaction. Yet, you cannot acknowledge that it was NEVER appropriate for a male to approach her in the bra section AT ALL.

You don't see your very own inconsistency in the position you just posted.

"M&S said in their response that colleagues work all across the store, they aren't hired for our attached to a particular department."

Read the fucking thread!!! The information is right here in the thread.

You are wrong.

Tell me you've never bought a bra or been a young girl or woman approached by men or had men delight in totally ignoring you while acting as your moral tutor without telling me... Oh, now let me explain why I know more than you do about men approaching teenagers in bra shops, nay, more than the mother who was there, do send me links and explain things to me so I can pretend they don't exist.

In plain fucking sight. These people.

JKR
asks women to speak up through their wallets

Lets face it M&S won’t change anything unless their profit and share prices plummet.

That is something that you believe.

You have no idea whether other's correctly identify his sex or not.

What would she need help with which was not lingerie and therefore inappropriate? She is in the lingerie section already.

Let me help you out- there was no appropriate way for the 6’2” male seeming assistant to approach a 14yr old girl in the lingerie section.

None.

Not one.

Not if they were the sweetest most helpful person in the world should they have been approaching her.

I’m a middle aged, mumsy, non threatening woman. The only circumstances under which I’d have spoken to the 14 yr old girl in the bra section would have been if she looked ill and/or in danger. No other circumstance leaps to mind where I would have approached her. I would have answered if she’d asked a question like ‘excuse me, how do you know where the different sizes are/what size they are?’. That’s about it.

You've just finished tidying up in one department, you're on you way to do another job and you see a customer that looks a bit lost? I worked in retail banking for a long time, if I saw a customer looking around when I was between appointments I'd check if they needed help.

Read the fucking thread! The information you seek is posted already on the thread!

You seem to not understand how M&S operate either.

"I worked in retail banking for a long time, if I saw a customer looking around when I was between appointments I'd check if they needed help."

Me too! But working in retail banking is NOTHING like working in M&S on the shop floor! Your comparison is completely fucking irrelevant.

In fact, what UK retail bank has multiple floors and has someone who has been allocated to give customer service on one floor in two specific departments but ended up on another floor altogether - ie. out of there designated position?

What retail banks SELLS BRAS TO TEENAGERS?

@Lulu49 Of course males just 'want to live their lives', so too, newsflash, do FEMALES. Without males in our spaces. Funny how females are not allowed to live our lives free from males in our spaces.

And if you would honestly have no problem with a MALE helping your 14 year old girl fit a bra, then you've abrogated all safeguarding and parental responsibility.

In Plain Sight!

I think we should ignore him now. His purpose and the level of interest he's got in what we're saying could not be plainer and I fear we are giving him what he wants (apart from carte blanche for men to loom in on children in lingerie shops, of course).