Just, wow.

[FancyNewt]

I stopped at a pub today on the way to our holiday destination . I'm not going to say where as it doesn't matter. But inside they had 2 toilets
One labelled men and the other 'inclusive' with signs for M and F.

I've always known the whole trans issue was inherently a greater issue for women but to see it so blatantly on the doors of toilets was sobering. Eg Men are provided with single sex spaces, but women. Tough.

Yes I know it's illegal and I could have said something. I chose not to though, as rightly or wrong l didn't want to cause a scene with my family present on a way to a holiday.

I am going to contact the pub instead.

And I am not at all surprised by the Fringe image posted above. I'm from Edinburgh and avoid town entirely during the duration as it's full to the brim with navel gazing, smug on the smell of their own farts numpties who probably feel entirely validated by reducing toilet facilities for women in order to conform to the current (well, dying on its arse) zeitgeist.

Ok and that’s great of you and for you. But many women aren’t like that, they haven’t come out of SA fighting, on the contrary. And we need to stand up for them.

Have you considered that your furious denial that toilets are an issue for other women might be a trauma response? It's very common for women with unprocessed past SA trauma to resort to black-and-white thinking about SA and whether situations are ripe for more assault or not. It's very common for women with unprocessed SA to try and police how other women feel about their own experiences. I hope you get counselling and one day look back with a level head on how you're dismissing other women's trauma and concerns and realise that you're just projecting.

From the Edinburgh Evening News via Susan Dalgetty

She hasn't come out of it fighting, she just thinks she has. It's a tough shell that's easily cracked as it's just a protective mechanism as she hasn't had the support she needs. Seen it before sadly. Hope she gets some help for it.

@cofffeeee

No-one should ever go through what you've experienced.

When you say "a man will not stop me going in a toilet" can you honestly say that if you entered a public toilet to find a man already in there, you'd be happy dropping your knickers with nothing but a flimsy partition and dodgy bolt between him and you?

Even if you can say that, you can't say it for any or every other woman.

Or - and here's a thought - rather than fighting to the death which seems a tad over dramatic and useless in the great scheme of things, you could just not join the side that wants to make it easier for men to use women's toilets

That's awful. It's saying "don't worry about whether you've got a p or a v, just squat where you like and accept everyone else doing the same!"

What about toilets on mountains?

Ironically, that photo of the toilet on the left shows gaps above and below the door is actually safer in terms of prevention of physical harm and assaults and medical emergencies. It’s not building regs compliant as mixed sex facilities should be private, sound resistant and have the sink inside the room (self contained).

It’s not going to be very comfortable for anyone using it, especially if you need to wash anything because of menstruation. It also risks voyeurs and other male behaviour in neighbouring cubicles. There’s actually a large percentage of men who wouldn’t be able to wee in hearing distance of female strangers. Those men would be filtered out by the woman sign.

Horrible

Surprised I hadn't heard this, and rather annoyed at the way the BBC seem to have sandwiched it between ads for themselves.

Yep. These are mixed sex toilets, so make that clear. Everyone hates them, and it's possibly indirect discrimination, but hey ho.

Then surely you can imagine why multi-occupancy, mixed sex toilets could well be an issue?

Why do you think we have single sex facilities in the first place?

Nopbody is talking about having to be fearful about going to the toilet. What people are talking about is ensuring that single sex provisions remain so.....so that women and girls can relax and be as assured as possible that when they require such provisions ( usually in certain types of intimate situation) they are safe and secure to do so.

The photo of the Edinburgh toilets are a single sex design and someone has added a sign to make them mixed sex. They are not compliant as a mixed sex design. However they are the safest design overall when they are single sex.

Universal toilets/gender neutral/ unisex toilets are names for mixed sex toilets. They have to be fully enclosed, private, and sound resistant. They, like all public toilets, have to be able to be opened up easily from the outside in case someone has an emergency inside. 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the toilet so this is a much needed safety measure. But this means men can, and do, let themselves in sometimes without a woman having any notice. It also means in private toilets it’s often too late to prevent bad stuff happening inside the cubicle/room because no one is aware - even if they are just outside and in the position to help.

The reason I am trying to raise awareness is because universal designs are seen as a possible solution by people who haven’t studied toilet health and safety. That’s why I pop up to explain so often because I have experience that privacy does not equal safety.

Single sex toilets with door gaps are the safest. They prevent assaults and save lives. They are better ventilated and contain less pathogens.

I really want to stop having to talk about toilets. But it’s going to be a problem for women, children and anyone medically vulnerable if the EHRC follow the route of increasing universal provision.

I’m sick of this. Toilets are for exercising biological functions and should be divided on the basis of biology as that is what’s relevant in this context. Women have a wider range of biological needs than men - they don’t just use toilets ‘ to pee’ and because of their biology they’re often in there longer. Women menstruate, miscarry, vomit in pregnancy, experience menopausal floods, are more prone to IBS and other digestive issues, suffer from post birth injuries and incontinence. They are also far more vulnerable to voyeurism and sexual crime than male persons.

Gender just isn’t relevant here. If we were talking about a hairstyling class for long hair etc then sure make it a class for women and those who identify as such if you want. But where biology is relevant, go with biology!

Shouldn’t it be the same in sports. Facilities for females and then an open one

Yes! I hate I have to mention the worse case scenarios but they are the reasons we have single sex toilets and door gaps. Just like car seatbelts!

Lots of - I suspect most - men don't like it either. My husband (he does have a lot of anxiety in general, to be fair) was horrified recently when a female cleaner came into the public toilet and another time when a man brought his small daughter in. I think it's a mix of embarrassment, and fear that they may be upset/frightened (unlikely in the case of the cleaner, but it doesn't have to make sense!).

Actually, there is a problem with train and plane toilets where women have been sexually assaulted - see recent case where guy accosted woman on platform and then sexually assaulted her in the toilet on the train.

This is why single sex spaces are so important - where men, of any perceived self-identity, are excluded.

It would be really helpful if the definitive EHRC guidance could make it clear that this sort of shit is almost certainly illegal discrimination.

Go for a pee wash my hands of more vulnerable women get on with my day.

They are a problem, women have been assaulted in train toilets and at the very best they are covered in urine where men have pissed all over the place, which makes having to sit down and change your tampon etc a miserable process. Thanks for bringing it up.

So we are trying to not let it get to that point - the idea is not to give men the opportunity. A lot of sex crime is opportunistic. You can fight back all you like but your chances against a grown man as a woman are low unless you have martial arts training or get lucky.