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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

OP posts:
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15
NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 15:27

Have to say I'm not really sure of the point of bringing Sandie back, or even really EM from Sex Matters. If this was scripted it should have ended on the forensic guy last week!

Anyway - can we all get on with our work now?!

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 15:27

GCITC · 29/07/2025 15:27

They are the first dates that everyone is available. It was looking like it was going to be October, so early September is a win.

But what is it they need to do? I thought they'd heard all the evidence now?

WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 15:28

tribunalObserver · 29/07/2025 14:19

I think the use of the P term may be quite community-specific. I'm also a bit older than Sandie and it wasn't used in the part of the country where I grew up, but in my early twenties I lived somewhere else where the term was used just as Sandie says, by everyone just like Aussie including by the people themselves, especially to refer to the P shop.

It varies in Fife. (Born and brought up there. Still live there.) I'm in my 60s. All of the following refers to m experiences here.

On the one hand, I've heard people using the P word. On the other hand, I was scolded by a high school pupil one time, because I mentioned buying something from - wait for it - "the corner shop" and was told that I was being racist.

I recall trying to explain to said pupil why she was mistaken.

I've also had to explain to kids that it's not correct to say "coloured" when they were genuinely trying to say the "right" thing - but they were brought up by folk who said much worse and think that they're being "polite".

Many, many years ago I had to tell a girl that she couldn't write "d-rkie" in a piece of descriptive writing. She was shocked at me. "But Miss! A cannae right ngger!"

I recall hearing the word "d-rkie" being used a lot in the '60s and '70s. As a teenager, I recall hearing a "joke" that hinged on the protagonist trying not to call on his pet dog in front of a black gentleman, because it was called "D-rkie". Thought that it had died out, but my teaching experiences tell me otherwise.

I also recall teaching someone whose nickname was "Pikey". Tried to tell his schoolmates that they shouldn't use that. "That's what his mum calls him!"

I'm trying very hard not to out myself here. My mum was Scottish, but Dad was a white foreigner. I recall being called a "half-caste" when I was at high school in Fife.

ETA Some of the above has come out in bold because of my use of asterisks to censor words. Have tried to edit, but unsuccessfully.

murasaki · 29/07/2025 15:28

nomas · 29/07/2025 15:24

How would your dad have felt if he knew in her break she was sending 'Ps go home' memes, I wonder.

Racists aren't always able to hide their racism all the time.

Trying to weaponise someone's extremely ill parent is pretty damn low. You should be ashamed of yourself.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 15:28

myplace · 29/07/2025 15:27

So, no more witnesses, just behind the scenes reading and assessing from the panel? What’s happening in September then?

Sorry, I’m unfamiliar with the process.

Me too. No idea how these sort of things work!

GCITC · 29/07/2025 15:28

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 15:25

Why are they not coming back to it until September? Is there more info they need before they make a decision?

And it's not for the decision, it's for NC and JR to summarise all the evidence and point to certain legal cases which further their case.

I don't think a decision will be made until 2026.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 29/07/2025 15:28

UpDo · 29/07/2025 15:23

Apparently so. I wonder what possessed her.

Zealotry is what possessed her.

Sausagenbacon · 29/07/2025 15:28

What i find obnoxious are posters who think they're holier than everyone else and not done anything wrong over the last decade.

HereticMyrtleLion · 29/07/2025 15:28

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 15:27

But what is it they need to do? I thought they'd heard all the evidence now?

Now they make submissions on the law and the facts and why their client should win.

Rednorth · 29/07/2025 15:28

Bluebootsgreenboots · 29/07/2025 14:46

Wtf does all this have to do with a man being in the women’s cr and a woman having the right (or not) to ask him to leave?

Pure dead cat strategy

NebulousSupportPostcard · 29/07/2025 15:29

Well today felt like an anticlimax. I haven't really understood what the overnight developments were, so will be off to look at the online updates.

Thanks everyone for the shared space to follow the tribunal. Hope we can reapply for access to the submissions days in September.

Butchyrestingface · 29/07/2025 15:29

GCITC · 29/07/2025 15:27

They are the first dates that everyone is available. It was looking like it was going to be October, so early September is a win.

Bloody hell. I wonder if judge is hoping everyone involved in case will have died from boredom old age by the time this gets resolved.

ickky · 29/07/2025 15:29

GCITC · 29/07/2025 15:23

For now...

Back in September.

Poor @nauticant

It is now officially a trilogy.

SadSadTimes · 29/07/2025 15:29

UpDo · 29/07/2025 15:23

Apparently so. I wonder what possessed her.

Not very bright and super eager to drop SP in the shit?

nauticant · 29/07/2025 15:29

GCITC · 29/07/2025 15:23

For now...

Back in September.

Poor @nauticant

So, everyone now has 30 minutes to post what's on their mind and then it's agreed that people will refrain from posting till 31 August.

OP posts:
Internaut · 29/07/2025 15:29

devildeepbluesea · 29/07/2025 14:56

🤨 I learnt exactly the same. It’s not ageist FFS, it’s an explanation that many, many communities in the 70s/80s used casual racism. It’s not an excuse, it’s a statement of fact.

Enough of the sanctimonious BS.

A number of posters seem to be trying to excuse this on the basis that some time ago it was common practice, and at least one poster seemed to be suggesting that it was understandable and excusable for SP because of her age. In effect it implies that older people are racist. That is in itself ageist. You might not like to acknowledge it, but it's a fact.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 29/07/2025 15:29

Not sure where JR's questioning has been going. She has show that SP has some unacceptable views and has enjoyed bad-taste/mean jokes despite her 30 years of service to everyone. Not much good to JR's case - though it will no doubt harm SP's public image and might be a bit of revenge?

The downside of this (for JR's case) is that she has showed that SP is really honest about things that are not to her credit... and this was done just before suggesting that SP was lying about her reason for being in the CR.

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 15:30

saveforthat · 29/07/2025 15:02

This is excruciating. I honestly don't believe that the court should have access to private WhatsApp chats.

Well, they sure didn’t get any of Uptons private goings on. He might have dodged quite a lot there. We don’t know of course. Could be honest as the day is long. One can be sure that he doesn’t pretend to be something he is not, or wouldn’t try to misrepresent anything by interfering with the little evidence he reluctantly agrees to provide.

myplace · 29/07/2025 15:31

Let’s not waste our 30mins on terminology and racism arguments!

lcakethereforeIam · 29/07/2025 15:31

I'm starting to wonder what will come first the next Game of Thrones book or the end of this tribunal.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 29/07/2025 15:31

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 15:20

Do you have reading comprehension issues.?.
My response is to the implication that someones views affect the care they provide.

You need to learn to read properly if you think I'm comparing Pakistanis to rapists.

Interruptaron incoming.

chilling19 · 29/07/2025 15:31

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 29/07/2025 15:29

Not sure where JR's questioning has been going. She has show that SP has some unacceptable views and has enjoyed bad-taste/mean jokes despite her 30 years of service to everyone. Not much good to JR's case - though it will no doubt harm SP's public image and might be a bit of revenge?

The downside of this (for JR's case) is that she has showed that SP is really honest about things that are not to her credit... and this was done just before suggesting that SP was lying about her reason for being in the CR.

🖕

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 15:31

Sausagenbacon · 29/07/2025 15:28

What i find obnoxious are posters who think they're holier than everyone else and not done anything wrong over the last decade.

Edited

Calling someone out for racism is not saying "I have never done anything wrong".

I'm shocked that this needs spelling out, but clearly it does.

Not being racist doesn't entail being 'perfect' or 'whiter than white' or 'holy'. It involves being a decent human being who doesn't think others are there to be mocked.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 15:32

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 29/07/2025 15:29

Not sure where JR's questioning has been going. She has show that SP has some unacceptable views and has enjoyed bad-taste/mean jokes despite her 30 years of service to everyone. Not much good to JR's case - though it will no doubt harm SP's public image and might be a bit of revenge?

The downside of this (for JR's case) is that she has showed that SP is really honest about things that are not to her credit... and this was done just before suggesting that SP was lying about her reason for being in the CR.

That's a very good point. She's shown that Sandie is honest and upfront and stands by what she's said/done. Making the whole "going to the CR during a menstrual flood" episode all the more credible.

borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 15:32

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 15:02

n her nastiness. Talking c you
SP Yes
JR You were doing that
SP no
JR [read] Beth doesn't deserve hate campaign by Sandie and other staff as well. You were waging hate campaign v DU
SP No
JR Did you tell your counsel to compare DU to torturer in 1984

That last suggestion sounds very unlikely.

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