NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

JR to go into their place of worship
SP y
JR But LN and FW heard you make comment about mosque. Are they lying?
SP I can't remember making the comment at the lunch. I remember conversation with paramedic.
JR Possible you did make comment like that.
SP Don't know

And yes, people having the right practice a religion doesn't cancel the fact that many women are mistreated by extreme followers of said religion.

Its probably the the biggest, most high profile case of his life, & he hasnt really kept the barristers under control, tricky when one of them is being awkward & obstructive. The offstage fights (private sessions for legal argument) havent helped.

GGM does not have white people calling Asian people P*' in it.

It seems this thread is overrun with people trying to justify the use of the P word.

It just shows many people haven't come along much since 40 years ago.

What point? Is it not further proof that a) pronouns can be used wrongly and b) whether they're right or wrong they don't change anything materially?

JR You didn't like mosque in Kirkcaldy
SP No, fear [misse
JR Wou;dn't be nice to put bacon into a mosque
SP Wouldn't be nice, but it's that humour
JR Not nice to do
SP Wouldn't offend muslim people by saying in front to them / This is to one person
JR Would you put bacon into a

My DH is from a Glasgow mining community and in his 60s. Same applies.

Were they educated somewhere liberal, maybe in a union or similar? Or formal eduction past 16?
I’m wondering where they would have picked up ‘political correctness’ as it wasn’t common round my neck of the woods. But my parents were self employed. No one was sending them on diversity sensitivity training.

Yes! that took me back. Interestingly, English/Irish jokes were regularly exchanged between English and Irish lads with the butt of the joke changed accordingly.

Let's ask JR which section of the mosque DU would be allowed to attend by the imams...

You said "white people or anyone else". You didn't exclusively say white people. I didn't defend that it was ok for anyone to do it. I pointed out (as others have and you've dismissed them) that there is evidence that contradicted what you said. Getting upset and crying racism at people trying to explain something by providing actual evidence is just daft.

Mosque
SP No, wouldn't do it.
JR To Pakistan flood jokes. All offensive
SP Yes
JR Reads one joke. Particularly offensive - Pakis go home
SP There's too much illegal immigration. My reasons are neither government or people living in Britain don't know everyone arriving in

this is painful to read

My British Pakistani friends use it about each other as a reclaiming. They are in their 50s

I think JR was trying to insinuate that she would endeavour always to use correct pronouns....and would apologise if she got it wrong. I think it is her way of trying to suggest that DU should be referred to as 'she' and any decent person would do likewise,

One thing for sure is that she won't be despised by everyone.
I reckon she'll have the support of those who are anti illegal immigration. Of which there are many.

Thanks I had wondered what the judge looked like

Agreed. And all the "we didn't realise it was offensive, it's just what we said" is such a cop out. Did you ever stop to think how people of Pakistani heritage felt?

I don't have the background about this ''no more mosques" things, but someone upthread posted how many Muslims there are in the area, which was around 3% iirc. No more mosques could be a perfectly valid stance to take if they were planning to be the umpteenth mosque in the area, the same as for pubs, clubs, bingo halls or anything.

JR using her best, infant headmistressy voice for Sandie: 'that wouldn't be very nice, would it?'

But I am wondering how much content Countess Russell has in her day to day life with illegal immigrants, where the questioning has now strayed to.

I think we often don't realise how quickly our society has moved in certain areas.

I was rewatching London's Burning recently - this ran from 1988 to 2002 and I was absolutely shocked by the levels of sexism and racism that were shown. Yet at the time I don't recall anything other than it being a pretty normal TV show.

I'm only in my early forties but definitely heard our village newsagents being referred to as the P* shop growing up.

I don’t think anyone has suggested the use of the word is a good thing in the slightest. People are sharing their experiences as to when and how they have heard it used. I haven’t seen anyone suggest that it is appropriate.

😂

My mum who left school at 15 told me off in no uncertain terms when she heard me (innocently) using a racist word that I'd heard from a neighbour. This was in the mid 70s, I was about 7.

Yes it does, this was in the late 90s when it was more frowned on.
In the 70s and 80s of my childhood it was pretty standard.

No, neither of them even went to secondary school, both working from their teens.
They had respect, or 'decency' as it was called in their day, not political correctness.

I am proudly married to a BBC and would not have know it was the wrong word to use in the 80/90’s. I worked in London and was one of the few white women on the staff. One day a black male customer made a comment and used what turned out to be a derogatory slur about me. I had no idea until a black female colleague gave him a bollocking about it.

To be clear I am not defending the use of racial slurs. What I am saying is that one does not always understand the meaning of language when it is casually used. E.g., how many of you are aware that those who have survived the care system hate terms like LAC, CÍC (pronunded kick)? They are still used interchangeably by professionals as it a casual part of language in professional environments. Care leavers even hate the term care leaver, you never leave care it is a life long identity. It is why the campaign for Care Experienced Person had arisen.