NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Saying that the Pakistani community were happy with being called 'P*' is trying to defend herself.

Whilst I have supported her in this case, I am disgusted by her and would not want to be anywhere near her.

Staff walking on eggshells.

I bet they were

SP t she was upset c pronouns being used. Taken offence.
NC To place where says official, SP v BU. Did you hear more c DU previous placement.
SP Not that moment. I was told at that time that he had caused problems while he was in his mental health placement
SP I was informed later that he had asked to go to a CR making a staff member feel uncomfortable. She was later informed that he didn't need to ask as he had already used it. At that time staff felt [missed].
NC Was there anyone in Benidorm posse who disagreed with you

I lived in v w/c area and was the one who said I felt ashamed because I knew it was wrong, but that ppl in family used it.

But it's helpful to hear the variance, and there will likely be lots of factors involved.

I'm in my early 40s and throughout primary school we knew the local corner shop as the P!!! shop. That's what my school friends called it, that's what my parents and their parents called it. It wasn't until we got to comprehensive school and we started mixing with kids from "naicer" areas that we found out just how racist it was considered.

Not that this excuses SP using the word now, we're 30 years further on and surely everyone in the UK is aware that it's not a pleasant word to use.

However, whether SP is a racist or not should really have no bearing on this case. Racists deserve single sex spaces too.

This was a time when Page 3 was widely read in most offices and attributes discussed. Smoking in hospital was usual as was smoking on a plane.

Wouldn't happen now, but it did not that long ago.

The benidorm Posse 😁

Think needs a beetle image

LN only one in Benidorm chat who disagreed with Sandie.

What exactly is LNs problem??

In a primary school staff room (as a visitor), central Edinburgh, late 1990s, I heard very ordinary teachers talked about going for a Ch**ie after work. They clearly did not think anything of it. Also, copious use of the term “Red Indian” for native North American with, likewise, no obvious clue that it could be offensive.

NC done

Ever seen East is East?

Untill reading this thread I didn't know that expression wasn't acceptable now

Also SP’s age, and it was pretty standard in working class Merseyside too. As a NQ nurse in Manchester (I left 2 years after qualifying, and yesterday’s witnesses reminded me why!) it was pretty common to hear hospital employees use the word when there were only white people in the break room. So not confined to the less diverse areas by any means.

Or Four Lions

SP ONe NC ?
SP Linsey Nicoll. NC [to 1754-6] Please explain what here
SP Apology from myself to my friend Sandra. Asked for a picture of Beth, she had taken offence to that. Conversation with Lindsay. This was an apology.
NC No further qs. Please wait there

I think that's true (also working class northern town, which now has a very high Asian population, not so many then but there were some) but it still always felt rude to me. I don't know why.

Sounds like someone's had a word with JR about referring to Sandie as Miss, not Mrs.

I grew up in a big city in the 80s, & the usual terms for a Pakistani or Chinese run business were those ones.

In fact, all Asians were referred to as one or the other, pretty much...

My parents absolutely banned my brother & me from using such racist language, & I know they were seen as a pair of prissy, stuck up lefties for it by some of our friends' parents & indeed our extended family. To be fair they also read the Guardian, & as far as the rest of the family was concerned that was practically defecting to Russia...

It was definitely very normal to use those words neutrally. Doesn't make it OK, then or now, but certainly unremarkable for someone in their 50s to have grown up with them as normal parlance.

huh, Jane Russell making a big deal about getting Sandie's preference over Ms or Mrs Peggie.

I think JR has been on Mumsnet. Asking sandie about her honorific now.

But if there are only white people around when they used it, doesn’t that say they knew it was racist?

JR making a meal of using 'Mrs' Peggie from now on.

Hello JR's team.

Would love for there to be a reason for MF to be reexamined to see if JR asks if she prefers Forstater to Forshatter.

Gina Who Likes A Drink has been mentioned - DRINK!

No, he would not. SP is entitled to say who she thinks made the comment.

Yes, same here. I'mmlate 60s, and when I was a child it was used in the same neutral way as "Aussie".