NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

It actually doesn't. I lived in a very m/c area in Scotland in the 80s and still heard it.

It’s not nice to find out that something which is normal in your community is massively stigmatised elsewhere. So her community uses the term in specific ways- not as abuse- and it’s being lambasted as a bigoted backwater, essentially.

Judge having a bundle mishap...

yes, this. Where I grew up (working class northern town) it was normal and not said with any malice - just descriptive of which shop you were going to. I moved to another part of the country where I never heard it and realised it was considered rude to use it.

I don't know what age Peggie is but I'm mid 40s it was totally normal where I grew up in the west coast of Scotland. I worked in a corner shop run by a Pakistani family in my teens and every referred to it as the insert word shop. It was also normal to call the Chinese by a shortened name. I would say the entire 90s was a period where it was all in a state of change and being younger I was definitely the one in my family telling people to stop using those terms. So it was 'normal' - but I wouldn't try to say it was 'accepted' by that demographic - I don't recall anyone asking.

It seems rather awful that all these people are being named, including the person who allegedly made the bacon comment. Couldn't their names have been written down and shared with judge and panel? I'm sure there have been other instances in other trials when certain things are written down but not spoken. Brave of them if they agreed to be named, but I doubt the paramedic did.

Just devastated for all involved that Sandie is in the position of having to name other women scared to speak up themselves- just because a man wanted to breach the basic dignity / privacy/ consent of a female changing room.

No woman should ever have to take her clothes off with men just to access her job, whether she is a woman I like or not!

Judge giving NC some wiggle room on time

I posted this on yesterday’s thread before the evidence using the p word was even released. I am a little older than Sandie and grew up in same area. What she is saying is 100% accurate. It was used as a normal conversational term in the 70s-80s - most commonly to describe the many local shops - but also people.

SP seems quite young to be saying the use of P was normal growing up. I am similar age and grew up feeling ashamed that the word was used by some in my family when I knew fully from a young age that it was very wrong.

I disagree. I'm younger than Sandie and it was common usage where I'm from. As was ch*nky. I just always thought they were shortenings of the words.

respond
SP Very supportive
NC Did anyone at that time
J [checks new bundle docs/numbers]
NC [to 1743] You say going to off for a while. Rep told me... who?
SP My RCN rep
NC Colleagues responses?
SP[difficult to hear] Supportive. [says something about get back soon

We used to talk about getting a ch*nky for tea, in the 70s/80s when I was growing up. Had absolutely no inkling that it was wrong at the time.
Obvs. wouldn't use it now.

As a University Lecturer in the early 2000s, I had to tell a student not to use that word when telling me as it was a Friday, she was going home for a (and I'll not repeat the word she used) chinese takeaway. She actually responded with, "What's wrong with saying C" as no one had ever pointed it out to her before as being offensive. Shocking, and I don't think I've actually heard it said since tbh.

Exactly this. The local shop where I grew up was referred to as the 'P...' shop and of course people refer to the chinese takeaway as 'Chinky'

Obviously in the current day this is unacceptable, as it is referred to as racism. It was racism back then, too, but people didn't really associate it as such when referring to going to the shop. It was just used as a description for which shop they were going to. I doubt many people actually referred to the shop as a 'P...' with hatred in their minds or prejudice or else why would they go there?

Not excusing Sandie, just giving context as to her description of wording, which in all honesty, reflected similar to the area I grew up.

I’m a couple of years younger and grew up somewhere known for having a high Pakistani and Indian demographic, growing up it was definitely used as an everyday thing, especially in reference to the shops. But obviously it’s horrifying now. It took my dad a lot longer to get out of the habit and stop saying it, I repeatedly told him that’s not ok language anymore. Thankfully the message eventually sank in.

NC Tone of colleagues responses
SP Shock. Couldn't believe what had happened to me.
NC There are more like that. [1741]
J 20 mins. Near end?
NC Y. Thank you. [to doc] Gina Harding. Says is that dr name Beth. What do you learn from Sandra
SP She'd been aware in previous placemen

Yes, Common in the Midlands too. Usually because they were the only shops open on Sundays and after hours. Far from it being a slur, it was more of a description of which shop we were talking about. Also ch**ky common for Chinese takeaway. Doesn’t make it right, but it was of its time.

Same in South and North London.

I am a similar age to SP and certainly the terms were used in the midlands when I was growing up and well into my teens. Just from my experience the term was used in the comprehensive school I went to, but I never heard it used at the private school I went to.

Receptionists are an odd choice. They'd agree with Sandie and be right to do so, but it didn't affect them presumably so I'm surprised she asked them.
Receptionists in my dept wear clerical staff uniform and use the same female changing room as other staff. A&E receptionist wears same uniform, so quite possibly shares A&E changing room. It's likely to be the same up in Fife.

Yes my cousin says the same

Oh aye they will definitely be noticing that she's doing it. I would like to think they'd take a very dim view of it, but I also imagine it wouldn't effect the outcome as such?

I can't remember if one of our resident legal bods have talked about this already, can anyone remind me please if how the Judge and panel would view this behaviour has been covered?

Well she was betrayed yesterday, and today she's burning the last of her bridges - no going back to work in NHSF for her, regardless of the outcome of this case.

And it's going to be very difficult tomorrow at work for the named nurses, and for DU. No way he is going to let this go.

I think she's early to mid 50s.

I agree the use of those 'descriptive, geographic terms' varied and probably still does vary according do the part of the country you're from. My elderly father never could understand the horror reaction he got when he talked of 'the P*ki corner shop'. He couldn't see it as abusive at all, whereas my sister and I could hardly believe our ears (having become Londoners, by virtue of long residence, by that point).

or most of Leonard Cohen's