"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

But that’s batshit. Or else they be suing the HCP who misregistered them wouldnt they? They are not female. They are male. They have male bodies. They cannot change that. They need help to accept their sex, not people encouraging their delusion.

This is a perfect characterisation of how I experience the ideology promoted by yourself and other pp's on this thread - only add the prefix 'trans' before the word 'women'.

It's not 'batshit', it's what it is to be trans. It's ok to be trans, it's a natural axis of human diversity. It doesn't make a person 'batshit' it just makes them trans.

Tandora, knowing that people can't change sex and that women have rights that need to be respected is not an ideology.

Both of those statements are ideological.

I share the latter ideology (women have rights that need to be respected), but I find the former ('people can't change sex') meaningless/ rhetorical.

No they aren't.

But you thinking they are says so much about you.

💁

What? "People can't change sex" is just a fact. There's literally no point even engaging with people who don't accept this.

so if someone claimed to be a different race, ie a white person claimed they were actually Asian, but had just been born in the wrong country and with different physiology, and there were groups solely for Asian people to give them support, would you support them in going to those groups? If not, why not? Did you support Rachael Dolezeal? If not, why not?

Perhaps signing an acknowledgement that humans can't change sex should be a requirement for qualifying as a doctor, and making any later statement to the contrary should result in revocation of their licence to practice.

If one person had changed sex, there would be thousands of papers written about it and it would be global news. Humans cannot change sex. The fact you think they can is faintly terrifying

"people can't change sex"

meaningless, nebulous, ideological, rhetorical statement.

Only a deeply unscientific mind would say something like this.

There's literally no point even engaging with people who don't accept this.

I think this is the crux of it. It's like trying to deal with flat earthers.

They might feel that their inner selves are female for whatever reason, but their sexed bodies - which is the important bit at that point in time as far as ethics, morals, law, society, and more immediately the female patient goes.

So an unprovable feeling in a male bodied persons head weighed on the scales of balance against female bodily autonomy, privacy, dignity, possible inability to advocate for herself in the given scenario discussed, possibly of a religion that would also view trans identifying males via the lens of their sexed bodies, disability, general respect for fellow human beings, morality, professional ethics, and ooh a whole load of other reasons that would take a very long time to type, all of which you have already heard from countless posters, because we've collectively been down this road before haven't we.

You keep saying you are proving that the whole thing is just too complex for us to understand (as you judge us to be intellectually illiterate), and that we are entrenched in our anti-trans prejudice, when yet again (hello deja vu our friend and constant companion) we keep repeating that what we are advocating for is women's rights, in this case the right not to be sexually assaulted by a male bodied person who is in full possession of all the facts necessary to inform him that he is committing an act of sexual assault.

Your misogyny shines through every time. I'm just waiting for the question that is too difficult even for you to answer with a not quite an answer / deflection, etc. That's when you usually abandon thread.

I'm genuinely thrilled you've stuck around for these two whole threads set up so you could educate us on your opinions. I also genuinely hope you stay to continue answering questions.

It is my opinion having viewed your posts over time, that you've probably rather enjoyed yourself on them (for all that I'm also sure you'll disagree with me on that point too), and I'm sure it's been very informative for those posters who haven't come across you before, or are lurking, so thanks Tandora!

Operation Let Them Speak! Two opposing sides, one goal! ✊😁

So show me one person who has changed sex. Just one. A chromosomal, gonadal, dna change. Just one.

The meaning is crystal clear.

Humans are mammals and no mammal has ever changed sex.

Tandora cannot argue that people can change sex.

So they're trying to argue that changing sex is an irrelevant concept.

I'm sure we can all see how bankrupt a take that is.

No, because being trans-raced is not a thing.

Again. Being trans is a real, natural axis of human diversity. It is a minority characteristic, but it is present nonetheless - we don't have accurate stats, probably around 0.5-1% of the population.

It is as real, natural, objective, as being gay, or having ASD, or any other range of minority traits. There are tens of thousands of scientific and medical papers documenting the characteristic/ condition of being trans. There is no equivalence with being trans-raced .

People have deeply entrenched prejudices against trans people, and entirely misunderstand what it is . They think it's make-believe and someone just 'deciding to identify' as something. Hence if you accept trans people then you open the floodgates to 'what if someone identifies as a gold fish or a table'.
This has nothing to do with what being trans is. The word 'identity' is actually completely unhelpful as a label to understand trans experience, as really it has nothing to do with 'identity' at all; trans experience is something much more visceral than that.

If Beth Upton understands himself to be female he shouldn't be practising medicine, and if he understands himself to be male but still treats a patient knowing that she has requested a female doctor, he also shouldn't be practising medicine.

I'm not a misogynist. I care deeply about equality for women and girls and dismantling patriarchy.

I also recognise, understand and accept the existence of trans people, and believe they should be included and accommodated in society as with all other minority groups.

Why do you think pretending to be the opposite sex is a real thing but pretending to be anything else you are not is not a real thing?

Every post you write oozes misogyny.

Beth Upton understands herself to be female and by all accounts is a wonderful doctor.

Being trans doesn't mean being a member of the opposite sex or being entitled to use spaces or services for the opposite sex.