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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

1000 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 18:33

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

OP posts:
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12
Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:35

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 26/07/2025 08:23

I could have sworn that particular point had already been covered. If it wasn't explicit, it was implicit in the context of the discussion however so this is just another clear deflection.

I think everyone here would agree with me that the scenario presented took as a given that the female patient had requested her intimate health care be provided by a same sex doctor.

So in that scenario where a female patient has already requested same sex intimate health care (for her not life threatening at all, non emergency, perhaps even regularly scheduled appointment - just in case it isn't explicit enough for you already), a trans identified male doctor presenting themselves to administer said intimate health care knowing the patient had requested sex care intimate health care, would be knowingly committing sexual assault... yes?

As an aside, Dr Upton has stated in court that he would indeed present himself in the given scenario above and said the patient would need to further be able to advocate for themselves and say to him at that point again "I'd prefer another doctor" (or whatever form of words you'd like this hypothetical female patient to use), further stating that he would see that as transphobia and possibly an act of aggression from the patient. What do you think of that?

Are you aware that in that scenario, and by simply saying "I'd prefer another doctor" as politely as you like, a doctor like Dr Upton could feasibly have health care withheld from the patient at that hospital? I'd be interested in what you think of that too?

If it wasn't explicit, it was implicit in the context of the discussion however so this is just another clear deflection.

No it wasn't. It was in no way shape or form part of the scenario I was discussing with that pp.

Regarding the different scenario you are suggesting where the patient had requested female care.
The issue is (which you refuse to accept) that a trans woman sees herself as female, so would she would not automatically assume/ understand/ know that you would object to her care. If you wanted to be clear it would be better to request in advance that you are not comfortable being treated by a male doctor, or a doctor who is a trans woman. In that case the agreement would be clear and if a trans doctor tried to perform your care she would be crossing a clear boundary.

illinivich · 26/07/2025 08:35

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:25

Nope there is no scientific consensus that sex is a strictly singular, objective, fixed and binary measure.
Actually the science shows that sex is a really complex, multi-variable process of development, which produces a whole range of complex minority variations.

Edited

Only women can become pregnant, only men can impregnate. Regardless of fertility, whichever sex a person is born into is their sex for life.

A man cannot feminise himself so much he can produced eggs and become pregnant- in other words, he can never become female.

What you are talking about isnt confusion about sex, but difference within the sex binary.

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:38

Tandora · 26/07/2025 07:55

No. That was not the scenario in any way shape or form.

I stated repeatedly that a patient has every right of course to refuse care from a doctor that makes them uncomfortable.

The pp then asked if she should say to the doctor “I want a female doctor, and you are male”.

I responded that she (pp) was completely able to assert her boundaries and request a new Dr, without the need to make personal “observations” about someone else’s body/ person.

So what other excuse would be acceptable in your opinion? The only criteria for a patient refusing a particular HCP is on sex. Why are you so invested in ensuring males with a trans identity are included in female spaces? Why should they be included but males without a trans identity be excluded? What is the difference?

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:39

cloudyblueglass · 26/07/2025 08:30

It most certainly was part of the discussion.

Happy to go find the quotes if you’d like?

It absolutely was not part of the conversation that I was having with a PP which started this whole conversation.

I'm really not interested in this kind of game it's so childish.

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:39

illinivich · 26/07/2025 08:35

Only women can become pregnant, only men can impregnate. Regardless of fertility, whichever sex a person is born into is their sex for life.

A man cannot feminise himself so much he can produced eggs and become pregnant- in other words, he can never become female.

What you are talking about isnt confusion about sex, but difference within the sex binary.

Edited

Irrelevant to the true scientific statement that I made which is:

the science shows that sex is a really complex, multi-variable process of development, which produces a whole range of complex minority variations.

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:41

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:35

If it wasn't explicit, it was implicit in the context of the discussion however so this is just another clear deflection.

No it wasn't. It was in no way shape or form part of the scenario I was discussing with that pp.

Regarding the different scenario you are suggesting where the patient had requested female care.
The issue is (which you refuse to accept) that a trans woman sees herself as female, so would she would not automatically assume/ understand/ know that you would object to her care. If you wanted to be clear it would be better to request in advance that you are not comfortable being treated by a male doctor, or a doctor who is a trans woman. In that case the agreement would be clear and if a trans doctor tried to perform your care she would be crossing a clear boundary.

Ummm no. Why are you putting all the onus on the patient? Males with a trans identity know fine well they are male. The only criteria to be a “transwoman” is to be male, Why is pointing this out wrong? If they’re so deluded they believe they are female, should they really be in healthcare?

illinivich · 26/07/2025 08:42

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:39

Irrelevant to the true scientific statement that I made which is:

the science shows that sex is a really complex, multi-variable process of development, which produces a whole range of complex minority variations.

And you agree that the complexities are within the sex binary of male and female?

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:43

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:38

So what other excuse would be acceptable in your opinion? The only criteria for a patient refusing a particular HCP is on sex. Why are you so invested in ensuring males with a trans identity are included in female spaces? Why should they be included but males without a trans identity be excluded? What is the difference?

The only criteria for a patient refusing a particular HCP is on sex

Where does this come from please? Can you link to the rule?

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:43

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:39

Irrelevant to the true scientific statement that I made which is:

the science shows that sex is a really complex, multi-variable process of development, which produces a whole range of complex minority variations.

But you still haven’t told us what these other sexes are? Or their role in reproduction. Or the gametes they produce. Or are you saying there are two sexes but with variations in chromosomes?

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:43

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:43

The only criteria for a patient refusing a particular HCP is on sex

Where does this come from please? Can you link to the rule?

The equality act 2010. I suggest you read it 😃😃😃😃

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:44

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:41

Ummm no. Why are you putting all the onus on the patient? Males with a trans identity know fine well they are male. The only criteria to be a “transwoman” is to be male, Why is pointing this out wrong? If they’re so deluded they believe they are female, should they really be in healthcare?

If they’re so deluded they believe they are female, should they really be in healthcare?

This is the kind of statement that compels me to join mumsnet threads on this issue, to try to combat the deep seated misunderstandings and prejudices expressed about trans people.

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:45

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:43

The equality act 2010. I suggest you read it 😃😃😃😃

I don't believe that the equality act says that you can only ask for a different HCP based on their sex. I think you are talking absolute drivel.

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:48

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:45

I don't believe that the equality act says that you can only ask for a different HCP based on their sex. I think you are talking absolute drivel.

That’s so rich coming from you. As my nana would say “ that’s the pot calling the kettle bruntarse”. So about those other sexes? Any joy yet?

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 08:51

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:44

If they’re so deluded they believe they are female, should they really be in healthcare?

This is the kind of statement that compels me to join mumsnet threads on this issue, to try to combat the deep seated misunderstandings and prejudices expressed about trans people.

do you also think people who believe they are napoleon or God should be allowed to treat patients? If not, why not? If someone is convinced they are female when they are male, surely they need help to accept their sex? Or are you saying society should participate in thst delusion?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/07/2025 08:53

cloudyblueglass · 26/07/2025 08:25

As always, women are expected to be the ‘support humans’

Even a vulnerable, sick or injured woman presenting in A&E is expected to be the support human to a male doctor.

Sickening.

The more I hear about Dr Upton, the more I think he cannot possibly be fit to practice medicine.

OP posts:
BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 26/07/2025 08:53

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:35

If it wasn't explicit, it was implicit in the context of the discussion however so this is just another clear deflection.

No it wasn't. It was in no way shape or form part of the scenario I was discussing with that pp.

Regarding the different scenario you are suggesting where the patient had requested female care.
The issue is (which you refuse to accept) that a trans woman sees herself as female, so would she would not automatically assume/ understand/ know that you would object to her care. If you wanted to be clear it would be better to request in advance that you are not comfortable being treated by a male doctor, or a doctor who is a trans woman. In that case the agreement would be clear and if a trans doctor tried to perform your care she would be crossing a clear boundary.

But in health care, the patients needs come first above the doctor's personal sensibilities or feelings (which you refuse to accept).

The trans identified male doctor already knows he is a male with a trans identity (obviously), so he should exclude based on that given the patients wishes.

The onus is not, and should not be on the patient to narrow focus her request that any same sex intimate care she receives excludes 1) male doctors and 2) that little subset (numbers wise) of the male sex that have some unprovable (for the moment) feeling that they are women - even though their sexed bodies, the law, and reality prove they are male, and the perception of the female patient is that this doctor is a trans identifying male.

In a professional sense it would be ethically wrong of the trans identified male doctor to even present themselves in that situation in the first place, even if he then removed himself after the patient repeated her request with the euphemism "I'd like a different doctor please". Even worse if he were to carry out the intimate health care procedure if the patient didn't say anything, silence is not consent.

In a moral sense it would be wrong for the trans identified male doctor to present themselves in that situation, putting the onus on a patient who may be too stressed, sick, unconscious, traumatised at having a male bodied person present themselves for intimate care, etc.
I'd also like to forestall any attempt to tell me that the patient might not notice, or know that the doctor in the scenario presented was a trans identifying male, because that would actually make it worse.

In the eyes of the law it would be a criminal offence if the trans identified male doctor in that situation carried out that intimate health care procedure.

ETA: Changed "it" to the bolded & underlined "they are male" to clear up any confusion

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/07/2025 08:55

Tandora · 26/07/2025 08:43

The only criteria for a patient refusing a particular HCP is on sex

Where does this come from please? Can you link to the rule?

If a patient said they didn't want a black doctor, or a Jewish doctor, what do you think would happen?

Would their request be reasonable?

Would the hospital be obliged to accommodate it?

OP posts:
Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:01

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 26/07/2025 08:53

But in health care, the patients needs come first above the doctor's personal sensibilities or feelings (which you refuse to accept).

The trans identified male doctor already knows he is a male with a trans identity (obviously), so he should exclude based on that given the patients wishes.

The onus is not, and should not be on the patient to narrow focus her request that any same sex intimate care she receives excludes 1) male doctors and 2) that little subset (numbers wise) of the male sex that have some unprovable (for the moment) feeling that they are women - even though their sexed bodies, the law, and reality prove they are male, and the perception of the female patient is that this doctor is a trans identifying male.

In a professional sense it would be ethically wrong of the trans identified male doctor to even present themselves in that situation in the first place, even if he then removed himself after the patient repeated her request with the euphemism "I'd like a different doctor please". Even worse if he were to carry out the intimate health care procedure if the patient didn't say anything, silence is not consent.

In a moral sense it would be wrong for the trans identified male doctor to present themselves in that situation, putting the onus on a patient who may be too stressed, sick, unconscious, traumatised at having a male bodied person present themselves for intimate care, etc.
I'd also like to forestall any attempt to tell me that the patient might not notice, or know that the doctor in the scenario presented was a trans identifying male, because that would actually make it worse.

In the eyes of the law it would be a criminal offence if the trans identified male doctor in that situation carried out that intimate health care procedure.

ETA: Changed "it" to the bolded & underlined "they are male" to clear up any confusion

Edited

The trans identified male doctor already knows he is a male with a trans identity (obviously), so he should exclude based on that given the patients wishes

No. Trans women understand themselves to be female - and lots of other people accept this too! If a patient asked for a female doctor they wouldn't have any reason to think that patient wasn't comfortable with them.

TheKeatingFive · 26/07/2025 09:03

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:01

The trans identified male doctor already knows he is a male with a trans identity (obviously), so he should exclude based on that given the patients wishes

No. Trans women understand themselves to be female - and lots of other people accept this too! If a patient asked for a female doctor they wouldn't have any reason to think that patient wasn't comfortable with them.

That is incredibly dishonest and disrespectful

If people ask for a female doctor, they do not mean a male.

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/07/2025 08:55

If a patient said they didn't want a black doctor, or a Jewish doctor, what do you think would happen?

Would their request be reasonable?

Would the hospital be obliged to accommodate it?

My understanding is that you have the right to ask for a different doctor as long as it's not discriminatory. So if you objected to having a black doctor, I wouldn't suggest stating that objection no. I'd advise the same - 'I'd be more comfortable with a different doctor".

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:05

TheKeatingFive · 26/07/2025 09:03

That is incredibly dishonest and disrespectful

If people ask for a female doctor, they do not mean a male.

It's neither dishonest nor disrespectful.

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 09:06

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:01

The trans identified male doctor already knows he is a male with a trans identity (obviously), so he should exclude based on that given the patients wishes

No. Trans women understand themselves to be female - and lots of other people accept this too! If a patient asked for a female doctor they wouldn't have any reason to think that patient wasn't comfortable with them.

So what would make a male believe he is female? He has a male body. The only criteria to bring a “transwoman” is to be male. Females cannot be “transwomen”. So they actually believe they are actual females and not “transwomen”? So they would not be affected by transphobia would they? As they are not trans?

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:09

Annoyedone · 26/07/2025 09:06

So what would make a male believe he is female? He has a male body. The only criteria to bring a “transwoman” is to be male. Females cannot be “transwomen”. So they actually believe they are actual females and not “transwomen”? So they would not be affected by transphobia would they? As they are not trans?

Trans women understand themselves to be female people who were observed/ registered male at birth.

This understanding is shared widely by others who understand/ recognise/ accept transness.

BackToLurk · 26/07/2025 09:09

Tandora · 26/07/2025 07:55

No. That was not the scenario in any way shape or form.

I stated repeatedly that a patient has every right of course to refuse care from a doctor that makes them uncomfortable.

The pp then asked if she should say to the doctor “I want a female doctor, and you are male”.

I responded that she (pp) was completely able to assert her boundaries and request a new Dr, without the need to make personal “observations” about someone else’s body/ person.

The scenario was a clinic promoted as female only. My local hospital runs such a clinic. All clinicians and attendees are female. To the extent that male partners etc are asked not to enter beyond a certain point. Women attend expecting female only care.

Are trans women male?

TheKeatingFive · 26/07/2025 09:10

Tandora · 26/07/2025 09:05

It's neither dishonest nor disrespectful.

It absolutely is. The fact that you (apparently) cannot understand that speaks volumes about you and the ideology you speak for.

Just enough. Enough of the trickery, enough of the dishonesty, enough of the dumb wordplay, enough of the horrendous gaslighting, enough of the disgusting disregard for women's needs.

If a woman asks for female only care, then it is totally unacceptable to produce a man. Got it?

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