"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

It's genuinely astonishing that people who identify as feminists in the US can't see the link between "feminists not believing that female is a real category of people that we need a word for" and "female people not having any sex based rights".

And they have the gall to tell gender critical feminists that our feminism isn't real feminism because it isn't inclusive.

The only thing they have to teach us about feminism is how not to do it. You'd think the fact that they have abjectly failed to secure women's rights to abortions and paid maternity leave in their country might give them pause for thought before they tell women from countries where women do have these things (and more) that we are not feministing correctly.

The lack of self awareness is astounding.

So perhaps Dr Upton has some sort of psycho-sexual hormone disorder that means he absolutely must change in front of women. Is this related to Gregg Wallace's ADHD that means it's impossible for him to keep his pants on in the office? It's funny how these medical conditions only seem to affect male behaviour in the workplace.

I just want my.female only spaces preserved, biological men not allowed to participate as women in sports etc. It bad enough we have to think about safety when out and about in a completely different way to men🙄

Ok but how does that relate to transgender? Sex may be less than clear cut for a tiny minority of individuals but that doesn't mean it is mutable for everyone else.

Yes, I do agree with this.
I've also made a point on page 6 of this thread about why a particular claim made by Tandora is philosophically extremely naive. My post relates to something that has always bugged me in this whole issue - the claim that we all have a gender identity just in virtue of knowing what our sex is.
(Took me flipping ages to write it so I am just flagging its existence)

OK, but how can someone with a Y chromosome and completely normal male sexual development be female?

You know, trans women.

Astronomy is a real scientific discipline, unlike sociology and gender studies. So is biology, and Tandora clearly is not an expert in that.

The very first post someone asks, are you a biologist or a geneticist?

And Tandora replies, I work in research in that field.

But sure, erase parts of the conversation to reinforce your ideas. That tells me all I need to know!

This is like saying that we can't be sure Spain's climate is warmer than Scotland's.

Because once a year Ballater is hotter than Barcelona.

But the second statement doesn't prevent the first from being true. Anomalies are ruled out of scientific studies to improve data analysis.

She can research it all she likes it won't change the answer.

And some people, me included, asked about specifically which field.
I'm a biologist but I know fuck all about the ecology of termites for example. It's a large subject, it's fair to ask what Tandora's specialty is.

"Tandora's argument concerns biology, not philosophy."

This is not accurate. As far as I can see on this thread, this biological discussion is being used to support a group's philosophical belief that does not reflect material reality.

Therefore, the biological discussion is indeed ultimately concerning philosophical belief.

I mean, it should be absolutely obvious that not everyone has a gender identity.

Does a newborn baby have a gender identity? What about an unborn baby?

What about a child born so severely disabled that they have never been able to communicate?

What about a child raised in complete isolation who never develops the capacity for language?

What about someone in a persistent vegetative state who no longer has any brain activity?

I would argue that none of these people can be said to have a gender identity, and yet we would have no trouble identifying them as a boy, girl, man or woman according to their sex and whether they are pre or post puberty.

Obviously the majority of us are influenced by gender norms from a young age, but does that mean we all have a gender identity?

If so, how does someone who was born and raised male, is sexually attracted to women, fathered children, transitioned in middle age, has long hair and likes to wear dresses, makeup and high heels have the same gender identity as someone who was born and raised female, is sexually attracted to men, gave birth to children, has short hair and never wears dresses, makeup or high heels? What on earth are they supposed to have in common?

NRTFT. I have read and agreed with posts, some educate me.
I am not stupid, I am a trained HCP, long lapsed though. I accept my knowledge is limited but -
My training showed me that it is possible for the development of sex to go wrong and that some babies are born with indeterminate sex characteristics. However, this is very rare. These babies will need extra care through growing up as to how they feel and present to others.
The vast majority of babies are either definitely male or definitely female and grow up to be happy with that. Anomalies are few and far between.
I accept that some teens may struggle with identity but that is part of their development and adjusting to the wider world. This doesn’t mean that they want to change sex but there seems to almost be a pressure, from where I’m not quite sure, to be ‘other’.
My problem is not with people who present as a gender different to their sex. My problem is with men using women’s spaces no matter how they present. The majority may be harmless but not all. Some men, imo, are using the ‘let us piss in women’s toilets’ arguments to gain access to our spaces in order to gain sexual gratification, an ‘easier ride’ in prison or to rape women.
So to me, the answer is additional spaces for those people. It will cost money but it is possible. I remember a time when you just did not see toilets for disabled people.
Trans people need to campaign to secure their own spaces and stay out of ours.
Puberty blockers (a whole other argument) should not be given to children and parents who want them for their children should be psychologically assessed for their fitness to support their children.
I just don’t believe that there are so many babies born with indeterminate sex. Am I a dinosaur?

That could mean she works as a cleaner in a lab, for all you know.

Or she might just be making stuff up, we really have no way of knowing.

Tandora gave an extremely vague answer and has entirely failed to elaborate despite numerous requests to do so.

I'll admit, holding a contrary view and being quizzed by posters who disagree with varying degrees of hostility isn't fun - it has happened to me and I didn't enjoy it.

OTOH, I knew - as Tandora must have known - what was going to happen. I waded in, made my point repeatedly, got called all sorts of variants on 'cruel' and 'ignorant' and sucked up the consequences of my actions.

That's how it works.

ETA The topic matters enough to me that I've done it more than once. Courage of your convictions and all that.

Because they have an invisible dsd called trans, for which the most obvious symptom (and main diagnostic criteria) is an overwhelming desire to use the opposite sex changing room.

That aside, I think there is a conversation to be had about the desire to practise sex deception, which is seen in other species. There's a type of cuttlefish where some males hide out in the female group, pretending to be female. When the females spawn in the presence of a desirable male, the disguised male releases his sperm. I could be persuaded that there's a genetic basis for this behaviour, and that humans have similar behaviours.

To a certain extent we have to take people at (non-) face value on here. You look at the posts people make and see if they fit what they say about themselves. So I’m very happy to accept the OP’s statements about themselves in the first instance, but also retain my own worldview and my own knowledge, and if there’s a clash I’ll raise that and expect similar respect in return. As it were.

And how many children were there from his homosexual relationships? Or was he particularly careful with contraception in them?

The incidence of CAIS is 1-5 per 100,000. It’s hardly common or an explanation for every other male who thinks they are a woman because they feel like they are, or whatever other reason they may have.

If someone has a background in a research for people with DSDs, I would expect that there would be many links posted by that poster that would support their arguments. This can be done without outing anyone's employment or identity.

However, and I am sure it is has been noted many times before and not just by me, no evidence to support this particular poster's posts is generally linked up. There has been none linked here except by other posters.

If the intention was to genuinely inform others, those links would be posted and we would all have the benefit of being informed by them.

They still wouldn't be women unless we change the definition of female to include people with this invisible DSD, which hasn't yet happened.

So, we are back to "trans women are not and cannot be women unless we first change the definition of what a woman is to enable them to be included".

We don't have to make up imaginary DSDs to do that.

We just change the definition of woman to "anyone who says they are a woman".

But since people's sex based rights are affected (in this country at least), we need to go through the correct democratic process before we can do that.

Any trans identifying male who has ever ejaculated into a pair of lacy knickers can be very certain which sex they are.

Not to mention any trans identifying male who has ever used their penis to rape someone.

There you see I disagree @Hellebore. I hate posts full of links. I do sometimes follow them and read them but one of the things I really like about MN is that they’ve held on to a visual structure that is more like a conversation. A post that just contains a bunch of links is like someone suddenly thrusting a pile of leaflets into your hand when you thought you were talking.

There are about 600,000 babies born in the UK every year half of them male. A 1:20,000 incidence means 15 born every year with CAIS.