"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

I think it's helpful to see males with CAIS like trans identifying females who've taken testosterone: They are sufficiently physically like the opposite sex to prove hard to fit in with their own sex. They would make their own sex feel uncomfortable were they asked to share spaces with them, and they may have some of the social advantages/disadvantages of the opposite sex. It's just that one group chose to alter their bodies and the other had it done to them by a birth defect. Where it's not a choice, I feel more sympathetic to doing what makes them comfortable.

That basically seems to be the crux of Tandora's argument, yes.

It is my insistence that words mean things, and have to mean things if they are to be a useful tool of communication.

In this instance that "male" means the producer or small gametes as opposed to large gametes in all sexually reproducing species.

That is medical knowledge.

The only reason it is being corrupted is in a misguided attempt to spare people's feelings (there is in fact nothing wrong with being a male without a penis).

If you stop insisting on objective, dispassionate fact as the organising foundation of society you will find yourself in a subjective, wibbly pickle very quickly. Subjective, wibbly pickles are extremely vulnerable to being exploited by the biggest bully in the playground at any given time. And if you have already rejected objective reason and observable fact as guiding principles, you have no appeal to anything but a bigger bully in order to save you from the first.

Such hyperbole I find damaging to your overall argument, there are nowhere near a million on this thread and it makes me wonder what other facts you expand upon.
Agree kudos to @Tandora for engaging, but I haven’t yet found their arguments to be substantial.

We’ve seen some doubt on this thread. Clarity would benefit all, I think.

Male people with DSDs are not part of the general discussion about being transgender unless those male people believe they have a transgender identity. Whether the male group with DSDs are legally ‘female’ or not is not relevant to those male people without specific DSDs being able to legally define themselves as female

very much this @Helleofabore

There is clearly a contemporary issue with the acceptance of natural limits and boundaries. People like to believe they can be whatever they like and go wherever they want. A self centred and self focused world in which you are whatever you imagine yourself to be.

A lot of this surely stems from digital cultures/ gaming/fantasy role play/anonymous or self created social media identities and so on. When you only perceive freedom as being free from limitation or restriction, then you miss out on the fact that there can be a certain liberation and freedom in the acceptance of those limitations and restrictions. Only when you accept what you are can you really be free to be who you are.

Why Accepting Limits Fosters Freedom:

Structure and Stability:
Limits provide a framework for action, preventing chaos and allowing for focused effort. Without limits, actions become aimless and potentially self-destructive.

Focus and Efficiency:
Boundaries help prioritise tasks and resources, leading to greater productivity and a sense of accomplishment.

Creativity and Innovation:
The need to work within limitations can spark creative problem-solving and lead to unique solutions.

Self-Awareness and Growth:
Recognizing and accepting limitations can lead to a better understanding of one's strengths, weaknesses, and potential.

Meaningful Freedom:
A life without any constraints can be overwhelming and ultimately unsatisfying.Accepting limits allows for the development of meaningful goals and a sense of purpose.

Yes. Like ‘hormone replacement’ being used for an elective medical treatment for appearance.

In this instance that "male" means the producer or small gametes as opposed to large gametes in all sexually reproducing species

People with CAIS don't produce any gametes. Your claims are a nonsense.

You are the one insisting on how people are allowed to use words. Women with CAIS are assigned female, raised female, are legally female, identify female, are medically administered female hormones to promote healthy female development.

Your insistence on calling them 'male' for your own comfortability is harmful and absurd.

I guess your tactic is just to bully people off forums when their arguments are too substantial.

Which argument has been substantial?

It seems that the argument is '99.9999% of people are the ones you are talking about, I am talking about the 0.0001% of people and so men can be women if they say so'. Which isn't substantial at all.

I might have missed it but on another thread, in response to 'trans people are either male or female' Tandora said 'nope'. I'd love to know what this means.

And still none of it is relevant to either women's rights or who is 'trans'.

So there's only contradictory research according to Rachel Levine but that's still more important?

I notice you keep avoiding answering my responses to your posts...

I smell grammatical manipulation.
Insidious.
Coercive if done purposefully.
Foolish if you've convinced yourself of your own lies.

You can't "replace" something "naturally" which was never meant to be there.

There is nothing "natural" about artificially manipulating puberty.

The other thing that I think would help kids with DSDs (and also those currently experiencing ‘gender confusion’) would be for society to become more gender critical - in its original meaning of ‘Let Toys be Toys’ etc. Sex is real but insisting we put little kids into gender stereotypical boxes, treat them differently from day 1 in anything other than the design of their nappies - wouldn’t it be easier for them rather than being made to feel like round pegs in those artificially square holes?

being condescending isn’t a good way to go about it.

Male people with CAIS have testes which are there for the production of small gametes. It doesn’t matter whether those gametes are produced or ever were or ever will be.

The body formation has produced those testes and not ovaries The body is categorised as being male.

Healthy societies also require boundaries in order to foster individual well-being, healthy relationships, and a functional social structure. Boundaries create a sense of personal safety and autonomy, enabling individuals to define their limits and needs, and to interact with others in a respectful and balanced way.

Why Boundaries are Crucial for Healthy Societies:
Individual Well-being:
Boundaries are essential for self-care and protecting mental health. They help individuals avoid overextension, reduce stress, and prevent burnout. By setting boundaries, individuals can prioritize their needs and maintain a healthy work-life balance.

Healthy Relationships:
Boundaries are the cornerstone of healthy relationships, fostering respect, trust, and clear communication. They prevent codependency, enabling individuals to maintain their autonomy while still connecting with others.

Social Functionality:
Boundaries contribute to a more functional and harmonious social structure. They create clear expectations, reduce misunderstandings, and promote accountability.Clear boundaries help prevent conflict and promote a sense of safety and security within communities.

Protection from Harm:
Boundaries protect individuals from exploitation, abuse, and unhealthy relationships.They provide a framework for identifying and addressing unacceptable behavior, ensuring that individuals are not taken advantage of.

Preserving Identity:
Boundaries allow individuals to maintain their sense of self and individuality within a community. They help individuals define their values, needs, and limits, enabling them to express themselves authentically and make choices that align with their own priorities.

Examples of Boundaries:
Time Boundaries: Defining working hours, saying no to requests that conflict with personal time, and setting limits on availability.

Emotional Boundaries: Protecting one's emotional well-being by setting limits on how much one gives emotionally to others, and not taking responsibility for others' emotions.

Physical Boundaries: Respecting personal space and physical contact.

Material Boundaries: Setting limits on financial expectations and resource sharing.

Digital Boundaries: Protecting privacy and managing online interactions.

By establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries, societies can foster individual well-being, cultivate strong relationships, and create a more functional and harmonious social environment.

This doesn't answer the question.

I'm also not sure how you 'replace a fact'

People with CAIS are still either male or female. Just infertile / not producing gametes.

Biological sex runs through the body and does different things to each part of the body. That doesn't mean it has multiple dimensions...

I'm also not sure how you 'replace a fact'
I think it's called postmodernism

Still waiting to see some proper scientific research instead of expressions of belief. @KateShugakIsALegend you are not the only one being ignored.

So for anyone who doesnt know what scientific research actually means a paper about whether cross sex hormones are damaging https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s44192-025-00216-3

@TandoraI’m curious.

You claim that FSDs are proof of sex being this nebulous multi dinensional concept wgere there no coearly defined make and female.

Let’s consider human as a category within the animal kingdom.

Humans are, allegedly, bi-pedal. If a human has an accident and lists a leg, or if they didn’t develop a leg or even both legs, or if one or both legs have malfunctions in their growth plates so don’t develop properly - does this no longer make them human? Because they don’t have the requisite two legs?

Adding to that. Postmodernism based on theories.