Compelled speech - Croydon pride

[Cheeseandtomato72]

Croydon pride will only accept applications from stall vendors who agree to state they believe:

trans women are women. Trans men are men and non binary identities are valid.

vendor applicants need to ‘join in a public display of support’ affirming these principles.

This is discrimination against anyone who does not accept biological males as women. Total disregard for the Supreme Court judgment.

The following companies sponsor Croydon pride. I’ve added their complaints email. You know what to do Mumsnet 😉

Unilever - https://www.unilever.co.uk/contact/

superdrug [email protected]

London Southbank University - no complaints email for non students but you can call this number to find out who to report activity to tel:+44 (0)20 7815 7500 +44 (0)20 7815 7500

The charity is 20k the company 10555864 is where the money is collected

I HAVE been to Croydon Pride!

And I have no problem with Croydon Pride being Trans Inclusive - their choice and I am not anti Trans people.

But as a Croydon resident, who uses Wandle Park and other public parks, I am interested in keeping our parks open and free to all, and do not want to see any group demanding allegiance to any belief in order to take part in or trade at a public event in public parks. It seems to me to be very anti-democratic to demand allegiance to thoughts and beliefs for an event in a public park.

Another local park is used for big public Eid prayers. The mosque asks attendants to fast beforehand, wear clothes considered appropriate for their prayers - but makes no demands or suggestions to anyone else using the park at the same time.

I have no issue with respectful behaviour being requirement in parks, same as anywhere else. Hate speech, assault, discrimination - not acceptable.

But asking for public alignment of thought is Orwellian, whatever the thought in question.

I simply want to know if it is legal. What is the matter with that?

P.S and this is what pisses me off.
Makes me absolutely fucking furious.

We are closed down from debate, looking at wider issues, asking questions...by the fear of someone yelling 'transphobia'.

Democracy is important and a group asking for public display of allegiance to a belief is co-ercion.

@Bobbymoore123 While you (wrongly) say people have not been to Croydon Pride are you a Croydon resident? Are you paying Council Tax towards the upkeep of this park as a public space? Are you concerned about our democratic rights as council tax paying residents?

If not - go back to your own damn borough and let them trample on your rights to think and believe what you like and stop telling us Croydon residents that we should give up our freedoms.

Yep you're right there. Trans men are never even thought about by them because they're female. It's a shit show. I would think a good proportion of trans men were lesbians and now with female partners so all the more reason to ignore them.

If these declarations of allegiance are only for stallholders at Pride who want to use the Pride branding, and not for attenders or the general public, then that's not so different from the Eid rules?

Not a lawyer but... legality might depend on whether local traders like an ice-cream van or burger stall or craft stall who have a licence to trade in the park can carry on as usual or if they have to sign up to these declarations as well. And whether a trader can still have a stall in the park that isn't part of Pride. It's a bit complicated because Pride might be paying extra for cleanup etc so traders would be getting the benefit of the crowd without contributing. If the usual rules for stallholders are being suspended for Pride and ideological commitments are required to trade then that could be discriminatory. Hm.

I don't see how it can be legally or morally right to expect regular traders, not part of Pride to agree to these terms. Yes they might benefit but tough, if this is their regular patch then they shouldn't have to agree to any of this nonsense.

Check out the post :
Cheeseandtomato72 · Yesterday 11:54

Under section 3 where it says its anyone who "works with"

Plus there is no permission for use of the pride branding.

Rather that the person paying for a stall or working with (LA, police contractors being paid for work etc ) must per rule 3 make a statement against non-believers using their own brand.

So works with

The police if not billing for the extra cost of policing is working with.

The LA by providing space on its own with no sponsorship is working with.
As you say LA is closing roads or public property and allowing a business to be carried out on part of it is depriving others access

The LA cant really justify charging an independent business extra due to the business being in close proximity to additional footfall

So the problem is the use of public funds and assets.

But they are running the money through a company so refusing to do business.

The charity and the company are not separate. It's normal for a charity to also form itself as a company limited by guarantee, otherwise the trustees are personally liable for the charity's debts.

Running pride, including hiring out stalls, is part of their charitable activities:

6. STAGING AND PROMOTING LGBT EVENTS AND IN PARTICULAR AN ANNUAL LGBT FESTIVAL;

The money they spend and the income generated on 'Croydon Pridefest' forms part of the charity's accounts.

Speaking of which, there's something a bit strange going on - why would they be 'not required' to submit accounts and an annual report for 2004? I also note they have six trustees but no chair.

You do realize that most of momsnetters are women, right? The kinds of threats that you can report to the police are from the men.

Also, I don't appreciate the hostile tone you are using towards us.

Thanks i was looking at this on the charity page

Income and expenditure
Data for financial year ending 31 August 2024
Total income: £19,303
Total expenditure: £18,730

and the accounts via a different page.

Activities - how the charity spends its money
Staging and promoting LGBTQIA events including the annual Croydon PrideFest. Raising awareness with regard to all aspects of discrimination in society affecting the lives of LGBTQIA people in Croydon. We also supports Croydon's diverse LGBTQIA organisations to develop and maximise the effectiveness of voluntary organisations run by and for LGBTQIA people in Croydon.

I notice the mission creep from LGBT to adding Q and I and A and then a + on the application form

I can't say I have a problem with this, much as I disagree with the views of the organisation in question. I imagine OP would not be complaining if they kicked out vendors who are morally opposed to homosexuality or who support the Taliban! This is no different, in my view, to a Christian festival requiring stall holders to be Christians, or a socialist gathering requiring stall holders to be socialists.

No, it's more like having a Christian festival and then making all the stallholders sign that they support a specific, contested and extreme belief that some Christians hold, but not all Christians hold.

Sex is a protected characteristic as is belief, and the organisers cannot rewrite equality laws to suit themselves. They cannot lawfully demand others agree with their new interpretation, its a contravention of The Equality Act.

Demanding people agree that 'trans women are women' discriminates against lesbians and gay men who are same sex attracted. I'm astonished people still need to have the homophobia pointed out to them.

It's unlikely to be a problem when the beer tents are run by the Green Party person in the context of their day job as publican and the sound/tech/everything else is from their ex's company, tbh.

This.

I have to say that I think religious groups should be allowed to do this. Policies against supposedly ‘hateful’ or extreme beliefs have been used to obstruct GC events for a decade. I don’t think the answer is to endorse the weapon but aim to wield it at the other side instead.

(I think Croydon Pride is an edge case, given the fact it’s effectively a town event. But I don’t think it’s straightforward, if we want to preserve the freedom to associate around contested beliefs, which we must.)

Thats fine if the Faith involved is only using the Faiths resources ( property and money etc ) to do whatever they are doing as that is then part of their faith pratice of living "in" their faith.
However what can not happen is the Faith are (at a detriment to others) allowed to use the wider communities resources and then (or by default) demanding the LA etc class all who will not worship as heretic.

For me, the important takeaway from all this is that Croydon Pride, as elsewhere, is not LGBT Pride it is T pride.

Once upon a time it would have been Gay Pride. Then it started staging 'LGBT events', then by 2024 it was 'LGBTQIA events', and now, by introducing this Oath of Allegiance to those seeking to actively participate by having a stall, it is clearly staging a 'T' or 'TQ++' event.

Good luck to them. Have a lovely time. But stop pretending that these events are LGB events.
LGB ✂T

Continuing the religious event analogy: if it was accurately named 'Croydon Trans Pride' and they wanted to make sure that stalls were all in accordance with trans ideology, I don't think I'd have a problem, just as I wouldn't expect an event clearly IDed as Methodist to have Jehovah's Witness stands, or vice versa
I don't mind groups and communities having their own days, their own cultural or social events; I don't feel threatened if an event is not for me.

I just want events to be accurately described; I wouldn't want to enthusiastically turn up at something that advertised itself under the broad ID of 'Christian' and find it didn't let Catholics have a stall because they are the wrong kind of Christian.

So next year they should name it 'Croydon Trans Pride', and then we'd all know where we stand.

The whole thing about the Eid prayers is that they just ask / remind participants to be respectful of the protocols within that religion.

They don't ask for a public declaration of compliance before entry or to take part in the prayers, they leave it up to the individual, and they don't make any requests or anything at all about anyone else using the public park at the same time.