Does this transwoman pass?

[ZeldaFighter]

DH casually asked me if I'd noticed the transwoman in the show we'd been watching. (Yes, he's a sh*t-stirrer!)

I hadn't so he revealed they were a main character in Season 2 of Poker Face. (Might be some spoilers ahead so don't read this if you haven't watched the finale!)

I hadn't thought they were a transwoman but over the course of their episodes, I had thought:

• they're a very tall woman
• they're quite unusual looking (polite way of saying a bit ugly)
• their hairstyle is a bit weird
• their hairstyle doesn't suit them

And then in the big reveal, how could this character be an international assassin who can disguise themself as a man? Oh, right.

They do the show well but it did slightly annoy me that that's a lead role in an interesting show where a role as a woman went to a man.

The actor is Patti Harrison.

Funnily enough I flicked on to that recently and immediately thought that the character looked trans so had to Google to check.

Just googled and can’t really see a good pic just some silly poses.

I think it might have been the interaction with the female character. Something just didn’t seem right for a female.

I wouldn't be surprised if a man passed as a woman on stage/film/video/TV/youTube whatever.

I've heard one of the dancers in Beyoncé's brilliant 'Put a Ring On It' video was the male choreographer (who put in a lovely little homage to the West Side Story 'America' dance sequence, BTW)
If he was one of the dancers on that video, I never noticed. He passed, with flying colours.
But put me in the same room as him without the make-up and costumes, and ask me again...

In pictures, could pass maybe. I googled. In videos, less so.

I kind of resent the question (sorry - not aimed at you, OP). Who cares if they had the most talented plastic surgeon in the world to carve them a new face and/or boobs, etc? They are still a man.

I don’t know. The concept of “passing” (or its variant, “but he’s had a vaginoplasty/been castrated”) as an arbiter of whether a man should be allowed to access women-only spaces, services, sports, acting roles, just doesn’t sit well with me. Who gets to decide? What counts as “looks enough like a woman?”

I agree. the whole idea of passing is rubbish. you are a man or a woman. if you are a moral and honest person, then in situations where sex is important you take the appropriate option for your sex regardless of what you look like. the rest of the time sex doesn't matter so do what you like.

I’ve seen some stunning Thai lady boys who at first pass you’d totally think were beautiful young women. More beautiful than I’ll ever be, or ever was at my peak.

But that’s really not the point is it? Being a beautiful doll does not define what a woman, an adult human female, is.

I think you can usually spot them a mile off. The one in Baby Reindeer and the one in Your Honor etc.

Passing = deceiving. (Credit: Julia Long)

Never forget that.

No offence taken, I just thought it was interesting that although I didn't immediately think transwoman, I definitely felt something. My spider senses were tingling...but the character is depicted as a brutally honest, socially awkward loser type so initially I thought the actor was just playing up that aspect.

I also feel a bit bad because if I had been in the drama and met this person as presented, I would have felt wary and uneasy. Because I felt something was off and I didn't know what. I genuinely feel sorry for trans people if that's the unconscious reaction they generate - it must be hard to deal with.

yup, men and women look different. otherwise facial feminisation surgery wouldn't be a thing.

Even if I don't immediately think 'man' when I see a surgically altered man on TV, I do generally give them a good long look and then think 'man'.

but as I say, so what? feminisation surgery doesn't change your sex. castration doesn't change your sex. wearing a bra doesn't change your sex. people should just take the option appropriate to their sex in situations where we segregate by sex, regardless of what they look like. it really doesn't need to be complicated.

This actor?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8773928/mediaviewer/rm511586817/

The opposite is also true. When I saw Sting’s daughter (sorry don’t know their name) cast as alpha male Freddie in the latest version of The Talented Mr Ripley it ruined the whole thing for me. You could just tell she wasn’t a bloke and it let down the integrity of the whole production which was an insult to the incredible acting and aesthetic of the rest of it. Ruined for the sake of dumb nepo baby woke casting.

I just googled. The first few pictures I thought possibly could pass. Then I saw this 😂

We are being manipulated, trans and queer narratives are being inserted in many things that we watch on TV, in advertising and on line.

Camera angles, make up, staging, acting..

I also see an unsettling increase in the portrayal of fictional women in violent situations.

And why? So we start to question our own view of the world, it reframes what we believe to be true, we start to think that women are not underrepresented, under paid, at a greater risk of violence, that our voices are not heard because the majority of people do not share our viewpoint, that it is our fault that we are weaker, slower, talked over, passed over for promotion, that we matter less.

In the words of another campaign .

It's not an accident, it never was an accident, it's the algorithm, it's part of the plan.

Why? Because deep down, many men believe that women do not merit a seat at the table of power, an equal share of wealth, that the fastest, strongest, loudest, deserve their place at the top of the hill, that if they are not at the top, they will find someone else to stand on.

Blimey. You’d have thought the photographer would have mentioned the home and away nipples before taking that!

I had a very similar experience watching an episode of Lucifer. I noticed quite quickly there was something “off” which was a combination of the way he interacted with a female character along with the fact that all the women in the show were physically near-flawless/perfectly symmetrical/beautiful and he just wasn’t. Slim and skillfully made up, yes, but quite different.

Ironically, it struck me that if there were more normal looking women on TV, maybe the male “women” would stand out less!

Somehow though, it was the physical interaction with the other character that really stood out. I think I was getting “gay best friend” vibes instead of two women interacting. I think we are very finely attuned to nuances that are so normal to us that they don’t actually register until there’s something “off”.

I did realize what it was and rapidly checked, but then I’m very much more aware than I used to be.

Passing is usually used instead of 'hot'. The question is never 'would they seem out of place in womens only spaces ' but 'is a man really gay if he fancies him'.

I think Greer said its about male view of feminity performed by men for men.

So I remember seeing this actor in Shrill and googling them because I thought they were male, so I guess not. They don't actually pass. Not even with the magic of TV.

Well, I was fooled, and I was very suspicious of the character. I thought 'she' might be the Iguana, so wondered a lot about whether she could be a man in disguise (yes) or would be able to disguise herself as a man (also yes).

I still didn't suspect the truth.

Ironically, it struck me that if there were more normal looking women on TV, maybe the male “women” would stand out less!

Yes there's something in this. Although I think transwomen actors are also held to punishingly high beauty standards. Higher, in a way, considering they mostly look absolutely nothing like the average transwoman in the street.

I see Google is very much insistent on there being "actresses" and "actors" actually, rather than the gender neutral "actor". Is that actually how people are referring to themselves again these days?

😂😂😂

A lot of men could pass as a woman on screen. Even then some don't and I have seen "women" on the TV/cinema and said to DH I thought they were trans and they were. We watched Sandman last night and there is a Trans actor in one episode - there is a big "reveal" later when other characters are shocked but I spotted it in about 5 seconds. Interestingly DH and DS did not so I wonder if women are just better at it.

Surely though they wouldn't have cast patti unless Patti was convincing as a female.

As mentioned upthread, some very few trans woman pass very well particularly where they may be from an ethnic group which is shorter/more petite and may have a facial shape/structure which differs from a cultural norm we are more used to. I'm partially Eastern European and as a result have very strong more 'masculin' features. Broad face, large nose etc. a petit man might pass more easily where I'm from as plenty of women like me have these stronger features for example.

Remember this is the best they can do. Far far outside the average and he still reads as male to lots of people.

Passing isn't a sensible barrier to entry though anyway as TRA have said themselves (because of course).