Does this transwoman pass?

[ZeldaFighter]

DH casually asked me if I'd noticed the transwoman in the show we'd been watching. (Yes, he's a sh*t-stirrer!)

I hadn't so he revealed they were a main character in Season 2 of Poker Face. (Might be some spoilers ahead so don't read this if you haven't watched the finale!)

I hadn't thought they were a transwoman but over the course of their episodes, I had thought:

• they're a very tall woman
• they're quite unusual looking (polite way of saying a bit ugly)
• their hairstyle is a bit weird
• their hairstyle doesn't suit them

And then in the big reveal, how could this character be an international assassin who can disguise themself as a man? Oh, right.

They do the show well but it did slightly annoy me that that's a lead role in an interesting show where a role as a woman went to a man.

The actor is Patti Harrison.

I think Patti Harrison is absolutely gorgeous and would never have thought she was trans.

However as pp have said, that’s irrelevant to anything.

There was a trans-IDing man in an episode of Lewis, played by a female actor, ie a woman. There was absolutely no suggestion that the character was male. Nothing unusual at all, not even that the 'woman' was unusually tall for a woman, or had larger feet than usual. But after the big reveal the character's voice got suddenly deeper, as if he was no longer making the effort to sound feminine. What it actually sounded like was a female actor deliberately deepening her voice.

It was like that trans character in Crossroads (?), also played by a woman, giving the false impression that once trans-IDing men have had lots of surgery they are indistinguishable from women. So much so that straight men end up in bed with them.

The man playing a Barbie stood out instantly, even with makeup, surgery, careful camera angles, etc.

The only way trans-IDing men 'pass' as women is when they are portrayed by women.

There was one in that Spanish series “Money Heist” too. Played by a female actor.

You’re lying if you think you’d see her in a supermarket and think that’s a man.

someone's very sure of themselves aren't they?

regardless of what I or you would think if we saw him in a supermarket, he is a man

There's no doubt that some men can pass themselves off as women quite convincingly. Just not very many. At all. And, you know what, even the few who can are still very much... well, men.

It's hard to say from a photo - but if he was between 5 foot and 5' 8ish and slim then a quick glance in the supermarket when I'm paying no attention to anything other than my list and scanner then yes, I would probably think he was a woman.

If I met him in an environment where I spent more time looking at him in detail them I'd be able to tell - we always can. If he was in a single sex space he had no right to be in I'd be fucking furious. I don't care how much surgery he wants to have or how much make-up he wants to wear, it's of no consequence to me - but he's male and he belongs over there ->

I agree with Puffy. Transwomen who pass, tend not to be exposed by their gait if/when they have worked on this, nor their voice, if they have had voice coaching. Their appearance carries them through the slight ‘tells’. Those who almost pass tend to be exposed by these features/ characteristics when they are exposed together (IRL situations).

It is definitely a rare exception, not the norm, for a transwoman to pass. Despite this, it is the norm for transwoman to believe they pass.

Asian "Ladyboy" looks being taken as better "passing" as femalr is a kind of racism. Features that are common among asian males remind western eyes more of western female tropes.

Women are not defined as more womanly the more beautiful they are, that is gross sexism.

Male people are not closer to womanliness if their disguise is more difficult to see through. It's still a disguise.

There is nothing wrong with being a transwoman/trans-identified-male-person. Be it, own it, be free. There is no such thing as "passing" which is not basically the ethical equivalent of using a woman for your pleasure without her consent. If you want to do that, that makes you a bad person. Instead, be open and honest about who you are, and don't hide it. Using any kind of group single-sex space meant for women would force you non-consensually on the other women there even if one or more women have said it's "fine" for you as a male to come in - no woman can grant consent on behalf of all other women. Crossing the threshold is thereforealways a violation of consent. It cannot be done ethically no matter how much effort has gone in to the disguise.

No feminist should engage in any discussion of whether or not a particular transwoman/trans-identified-male-person "passes" - any such conversation requires first acceptance of the concept that there exists a set of sexist stereotypes for what "womanliness" looks like.

Here’s Patti at 20 and “now” - wearing a pregnancy bump which is weird if she’s a transwoman
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd0EADDjcM/

eta - it seems to be a movie prop rather than a fetish - phew!

I should think that was Mr Harrison's point - a lot of male transsexuals fetishise breasts - it's a pornified view of women, which makes the whole thing even more offensive.

There's a trans-identified man in the (small) chorus of muses in a current West End/Broadway hit musical. You can tell pretty quickly - height, stockiness of body (the person is pretty huge) and no sway from the hips or torque in the body (women can much more easily twist their torsos independently of their hip girdle), and then when you hear the singing voice - it's obvious.

And you are lying if you think most of us can't tell when a man is a man

You’re probably right. But can you imagine the
conversation?

Photographer - do you know that your nipples look like they’ve had an argument and are no longer talking to each other?

PH - Yep. I think they look sexy.

I loved Poker Face, watched it all and had no idea Patti was trans until I googled as thought actor was familiar.

@RareGoalsVerge Asian "Ladyboy" looks being taken as better "passing" as femalr is a kind of racism. Features that are common among asian males remind western eyes more of western female tropes.

I don't understand how this is racism.

I think that some Asian men may pass better is due to the fact they are often smaller/shorter and have finer features, and are not great big bulking 6 foot tall obvious men

😂😂😂

It’s not racism. Racism is treating someone badly or making a judgement about their character or abilities because of their race.

Not observing that Asian men are shorter and all Asians tend to have finer features/bone structure than Caucasians. It’s not a bad thing, it is just an observable thing.

Indeed. Imagine passing these in a supermarket from behind. Owen Jones in a dress vs. Tyson Fury in a dress. Fury would probably get my attention whereas I might not even notice Jones.

Except I got out of the car in a supermarket, glanced down the rows, saw someone get out of their car wearing a yellow mini skirt about 4 rows away and I thought "That's a man". My eyesight and observation skills are not that good but I clocked him from yards away.

Moulin Rouge? Clocked instantly.

I told DH about the one in Barbie as soon as they came into screen. I think women are better at it as we have to be more aware of the danger men pose, unfortunately

I should think that was Mr Harrison's point - a lot of male transsexuals fetishise breasts - it's a pornified view of women, which makes the whole thing even more offensive.

I think thats what he was intending - a parody of a parody of 'woman'.

What gave him the confidence to determine the line where the fetish is acceptable is a mystery to me.

I know what you mean about that kind of spidey sense and confusion. Although recently for me it was an actual person not a character. I was watching a clip of a podcast and I was thinking who is that woman talking in a stupid voice and being all giggly in a very male setting, it seemed really odd when there’s such a struggle for women to be taken seriously in ghat field. Anyway it wasn’t the focus of the video so I didn’t think any more of it unless months later and I saw this woman again, this time in a better quality video and I realised it was a transwoman and it made a lot more sense.

Exactly. "Passing" on a screen or picture has no merit.

Same. In fact I didn’t think they were trying to “pass” I thought it was a deliberate statement…