Does this transwoman pass?

[ZeldaFighter]

DH casually asked me if I'd noticed the transwoman in the show we'd been watching. (Yes, he's a sh*t-stirrer!)

I hadn't so he revealed they were a main character in Season 2 of Poker Face. (Might be some spoilers ahead so don't read this if you haven't watched the finale!)

I hadn't thought they were a transwoman but over the course of their episodes, I had thought:

• they're a very tall woman
• they're quite unusual looking (polite way of saying a bit ugly)
• their hairstyle is a bit weird
• their hairstyle doesn't suit them

And then in the big reveal, how could this character be an international assassin who can disguise themself as a man? Oh, right.

They do the show well but it did slightly annoy me that that's a lead role in an interesting show where a role as a woman went to a man.

The actor is Patti Harrison.

I watched the Single Ladies video again yesterday and I would be very surprised if either of those dancers were men. Feet are usually a giveaway - one has smaller feet than Beyoncé, the other about the same.

He passes in stills. Very likely not in person!

There is, however, an overlap between normal female and male shoe size ranges, so shoe size alone may not be conclusive.

It's really irrelevant though. I could sit in a wheelchair for example, and if you glanced at me you'd think I was physically disabled. That still wouldn't mean I'd be entitled to access services for physically disabled people or claim benefits I wasn't entitled to.

Never heard of this person but there's a prominent Adam's apple in one of the first pics to appear when I Googled.

At any rate, so what? Some people thought he was female when he isn't. He still isn't. Some people refused to sell me alcohol when I was almost 30 because they thought I might be under 25. I was still almost 30. I am white but tan very easily and very dark, and on occasion people have thought I was Indian or mixed race. I was still just white with a dark tan. Why is this a gotcha? People being wrong about something doesn't mean that something isn't a something.

@ZeldaFighter I hadn't thought they were a transwoman but over the course of their episodes, I had thought: they're a very tall woman

Tall women exist OP, and the vast majority of men are not as tall as women think (80% of men are shorter than 6' I believe).

She's not tall, by the way. She's 5'8'', which is only a few inches taller than the average woman.

The actor is Patti Harrison.

I had a look and as a man, I think she is pretty. I'm not sure what your issue is.

Trying to 'pass' is fraud. They're trying to deceive people. The question of "How can I pass better?" is essentially "How can I lie better?".

And women always know. No matter how much a man thinks they pass as women, they don't. And vice versa- a women never passes as a man. No matter what their friends say.

I could roll out of bed, throw on some baggy clothes, not put on any make up at all and I would be recognised as a woman. Because I am one.

A man could spend hours putting on make up, put on a carefully curated 'feminine' outfit and they would still be recognised as a man. Because they are one.

Interesting thread. I have enjoyed Poker Face (not as good as Series 1) and I thought that Patti's character was brilliantly acted - someone who is just slightly off and slightly unsettling. Actually really good casting. I have finally got round to watching episode 12 and a couple of things struck me. The scene where Charlie and Alex were walking across the car park to the truck stop. Alex was walking like a man. It was quite pointed and possibly deliberate. The second was how Alex was dressed in the scenes with Charlie in Beatrice's house. Alex was wearing a loose bodysuit which hid all proportions. Again, possibly deliberate.

I'm not sure about the underlying narrative. Did they cast Patti Harrison because they wanted that slight feeling of uncomfortablility (is that a word)? Did they cast Patti Harrison to make the point that Charlie Cale can't be lied to so Patti must be a woman?

Or (and this is why this is a separate paragraph) did they produce an amazing treble bluff. A little bit of "not quite right but let's see where it goes"; a couple of scenes showing Patti as a possible male and then the final close off of "she lied to me until she couldn't".

Still a good show.

You would expect that trans actors would be better at “passing” than the general public. Convincing people they’re something that they’re not is literally their job.

I don't know what the point of saying he's pretty - we know pretty boys and men exist.

The average height for men in the UK is 5 foot 9, so he's only an inch shorter than the average. The average height for women in the UK is 5 foot 3, so hes 5 inches taller than the average woman.

Women live around men, we know how much taller men are, on average, to us. We also know they are much stronger. When you are around 6 inches smaller than most men, you known it. And women have experienced this since they were girls.

The point is that, when its not important, we dont pay close attention to those around us. But in single sex spaces, differences in sex are more obvious.

Sometimes it is difficult to tell in photos which can be adjusted, other times you think people need to be more honest as they are not passing or even close to passing. So in a photo they may pass but when you seem them walk, move their hands, feet, thickness of neck you can mostly tell even when they are a slight build

trans woman, a man who prefers to present themselves in women's clothes this is nothing new and men who dress as women should be able to without being mocked but they are not women and so rarely passing and of course should not be in female only spaces

they're quite unusual looking (polite way of saying a bit ugly)

I've just googled. I'm GC to the power of 10 but don't think this person is remotely 'ugly'. Can't even see 'unusual looking.'

Of course tall women exist, and OP thought the actor was a tall woman. However, on average men are taller than women. The average, mean and modal heights for men are taller than those for women. And when ranked by height in their sex class, men will be taller than women who are at the equivalent height ranking among women. That is, the tallest man is taller than the tallest woman and the 500th tallest man is taller than the 500th tallest woman.

5'8" is four inches taller than the average UK woman and only an inch shorter than the average UK man. I am 5'7" and taller than most women I meet.

Attractiveness is subjective and has nothing to do with whether someone is male or female. However, a person attempting to conceal their sex and pass as the opposite one is highly likely to look "off" in some way, which some people will see as a form of ugliness.

@ThatCyanCat The average, mean and modal heights for men are taller than those for women.

Why separate out the average, mean, and mode? Those three values will be exactly the same for a Gaussian distribution...

@illinivich I don't know what the point of saying he's pretty

Because OP said she is a 'bit ugly'. So I had a look and I disagree, I think she is pretty.

Women live around men, we know how much taller men are, on average, to us. We also know they are much stronger. When you are around 6 inches smaller than most men, you known it. And women have experienced this since they were girls.

Well I'm not sure about that. The average man is 5'9'', and is rarely described by women as "tall." Such men are almost always considered "short," even though they are average.

I think the issue is that people watch a lot of TV, and are influenced by what they see on TV. Male actors tend to be taller on average, so people wrongly develop a mental image of all men being huge 6'3'' rugby players, even though this is not a reflection of real life.

They do look exactly like their twin brother. But with long hair. But they look female on screen.

To make the point that, tall women and short men notwithstanding, men are still overall taller than women. As well you know.

Why would a man of average height be described as tall? As you say, he's average.

And of course people don't think all men are 6'3" rugby players. We don't live in our TV sets. I've never heard a woman call an average height man "short", this is just the garbage men come up with because they don't like women having preferences. I know you're now going to frantically Google someone saying it, whatever. They don't mean he is objectively short, they mean he is too short to appeal to them. Still, average height men find relationships all the time. They really aren't generally regarded as short.

The man you fancy is much closer to the male height average than the female one. Makes perfect sense. People on TV are usually smaller than you think they are.

@ThatCyanCat Why would a man of average height be described as tall? As you say, he's average.

Right, he's average. So why are 5'9'' men almost always regarded as "short"?

And of course people don't think all men are 6'3" rugby players. We don't live in our TV sets. I've never heard a woman call an average height man "short",

You sure about that? Are you sure about that?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/sexism-on-the-covid-19-frontline-ppe-is-made-for-a-6ft-3in-rugby-player

The Guardian claims that PPE is designed for 6'3'' men. Given that such appliances are designed for Joe Average, this indicates that the Guardian thinks an average man is 6'3''. In reality, a 6'3'' man is in the top 3% of men by height.

There are indeed people who think the average man is above 6'. They are generally the same kinds of people as those who think a salary of £60k is average.

this is just the garbage men come up with because they don't like women having preferences. I know you're now going to frantically Google someone saying it, whatever. They don't mean he is objectively short, they mean he is too short to appeal to them.

Which is clearly an indication of lacking maturity and not having reasonable expectations of other people, but that's a separate conversation entirely.

5'9" men aren't generally regarded as short. The people who say they are are generally angry men who don't like women having preferences. They aren't thought of as particularly tall, because they aren't, they are average. If women have a completely unrealistic idea of how tall men generally are because they never leave the house, that's both their issue and also pretty much the invention of said angry men.

OP noticed this actor was tall for a woman because 5'8" is pretty tall for a woman, despite being an inch shorter than average for a man. So even a man who's on the short side is tall for a woman. That alone didn't mean he was a man but it was one of the things that OP noticed as unusual for a woman before she was aware he was a man.

As for PPE specifically, I'm not an expert on it but I do know it was established years ago that safety gear was designed with men as the default and was consistently failing to protect women. I would hazard a guess that when they're mass producing gear like that, they err on the side of being larger because then at least people can get it on and it's easier to take stuff in than let it out. It's not very well profiled clothing because there is no typical customer as there usually is with clothing.

You're probably right and there exist a small number of people who live under rocks (with giants) and therefore truly see a man of 6'1" and don't think he's tall. Most people realise the truth though; when women have a preference for a man that height, it's usually precisely because they know it's above average and therefore "tall".

And yet, so what? A 5'8" man is significantly taller than the average woman so when he was disguised as a woman, OP noticed his height and she was right to clock it as a sign of something less common.

Looks like you have issues around your height, shuggles. And you haven't read (or understood) the article you linked.

Women know how tall men are. When a woman meets a man in the changing room shes not thinking if hes an inch shorter than the average man, there's a chance he's a woman. It doesnt matter if that women is 5 foot 2 or 6 foot.

I apologise if I was being mean. I just meant, to me, the actor didn't have a "conventionally beautiful" face. Which, given that she was cast alongside the quirky and wonderful Natasha Lyonne, shouldn't really be surprising....but women who are not "conventionally beautiful" don't usually get roles in US TV series unless it's a "thing" (e.g. Ugly Betty)

Another poster has commented on whether the show producers did this deliberately to fit the plot...

Still an excellent show - i agree Series 2 was different, possibly less enjoyable - loved the school episode and the supermarket episode, which was heartbreaking - but overall, perhaps not as good.

Your points about the whys and wherefores of her casting are really interesting. I was actually musing on the show for days, thinking that even if she used prosthetics like the other guy, she'd be a woman impersonating a man. Then DH mentioned her trans status and it all made more sense! Which probably makes the show really transphobic!